3 ms·

The reliance on a three button button mouse (buttons which sometimes need to be chorded) makes plan9 impossible to use on any modern Laptop. Many other aspects

by sprash 7y ago

The reliance on a three button button mouse (buttons which sometimes need to be chorded) makes plan9 impossible to use on any modern Laptop. Many other aspects of the UI are completely idiotic (like pixel perfect mouse selection of words to execute commands). Which is a real shame because everything besides the UI is really great. But it seems like the elitist community is perfectly happy with the fact that nobody uses their software.

ggm 7y ago
I think you said one good thing (the mouse is a problem) and one bad thing (the accusation of elitism) The people who did plan9 did not do this, to support other people. It was a self-supporting community. If that imposes barriers which make it hard for others, its not elitism in the sense I understand it, because the barrier is functional not based on any other entry score, such as 'who you know' or 'what school you went to' -You just have to make a matching investment, to their investment. I have a lot of respect for these people. I have never interacted directly with them beyond the tokenistic, despite my obscurity no mail of substance I have sent to them in times past was ignored, and if the answer didn't satisfy it was usually because I (like you) assumed they had acquired obligations and burdens facing me, regarding this code. They're not looking for happiness in your use of this code, or your non-use of this code. They're looking for higher functional outcomes from things proved in this code which now filter out in other ways.
- sprash 7y ago
  The people working on or using plan9 (front) today are different. Just look at the cat-v harmful section and you'll see the blatant elitism. They will keep the completely flawed concepts like the chorded mouse interface for ever for two reasons: 1. To keep normal people out 2. Because their "gods" (Richie, Pike, Kernighan, ...) can't ever be wrong. Claiming otherwise would be heresy.
  - kick 7y ago
    Joking hyperbole isn't elitism, and the chorded mouse interface was repeatedly shown (with user studies and everything!) to be faster than a keyboard-oriented interface.
  - ggm 7y ago
    Please don't call them gods, and please don't disparage them by the implication of how people talk about them. These are engineers, who made choices, which led to things, which have had huge import. They have feet of clay, like everyone else. They get cranky with time-wasters. Its not a lifestyle. Pike's forays into markov-chain fake identities writing in USENET is not perhaps his most shining moment. Its a student prank. He's notorious (by gossip mainly) as being cranky at the accolytes and the adulation. He is said to dislike it. He also is said to dislike people assuming they can debate "the big man" and do a take-down. I am sure Thompson and Ritchie got a shitload of this: I know in fact, because when I chaired a UUG meeting (AUUG) and they were invited guests, they had "minders" in the local Version-8 community who kept people at bay who were being tiresome at the conference socials. Rock stars get this. Its unavoidable. I don't want to imply any special insight. None of them know me, or would give me the time of day absent some specific reason to engage, and thats fine and normal too. Why should they? Unlike many others, they made choices which did not lead to them vesting billions and billions of dollars. Many other people made choices to use this bell IPR (which they freely gave away) and constructed huge edifices worth collectively in the Trillions of dollars. Very few people get to have this impact on an economy, let alone worldwide. Thompson & Ritchie got the presidents medal for a reason.
jeromenerf 7y ago
Plan9 tools are great to use on thinkpads since they actually have 3 buttons. Most would find a dedicated mouse more appropriate however (the vertical one with 3 buttons and a separate wheel for instance). Plan9 workflow is mouse oriented and it's fantastic. Its keyboard workflow or the lack of it is infuriating, for me, your typical linux/vim guy. The linux mouse oriented workflow, or the lack of it, is equally infuriating for me now that I have used plan9(port), acme, editable dumb terminals, etc. So I hack it in my tools, however I can. I would warn newcomers that experimenting with plan9 and its tools can create strong frustration :)
wnoise 7y ago
There are still some modern laptops with three buttons built in -- primarily ThinkPads, but that's not a bad choice. For the rest, external mice work quite well.
yiyus 7y ago
I have used p9p for years because I like the GUI (in different modern laptops, always without external mouse). Other people prefer huge IDEs, many people prefer vim or emacs, and I also known some extremely good programmers who just use notepad. And yes, I am perfectly happy with that.

by sprash 7y ago

ggm 7y ago

I think you said one good thing (the mouse is a problem) and one bad thing (the accusation of elitism) The people who did plan9 did not do this, to support other people. It was a self-supporting community. If that imposes barriers which make it hard for others, its not elitism in the sense I understand it, because the barrier is functional not based on any other entry score, such as 'who you know' or 'what school you went to' -You just have to make a matching investment, to their investment. I have a lot of respect for these people. I have never interacted directly with them beyond the tokenistic, despite my obscurity no mail of substance I have sent to them in times past was ignored, and if the answer didn't satisfy it was usually because I (like you) assumed they had acquired obligations and burdens facing me, regarding this code. They're not looking for happiness in your use of this code, or your non-use of this code. They're looking for higher functional outcomes from things proved in this code which now filter out in other ways.

sprash 7y ago
The people working on or using plan9 (front) today are different. Just look at the cat-v harmful section and you'll see the blatant elitism. They will keep the completely flawed concepts like the chorded mouse interface for ever for two reasons: 1. To keep normal people out 2. Because their "gods" (Richie, Pike, Kernighan, ...) can't ever be wrong. Claiming otherwise would be heresy.
- kick 7y ago
  Joking hyperbole isn't elitism, and the chorded mouse interface was repeatedly shown (with user studies and everything!) to be faster than a keyboard-oriented interface.
- ggm 7y ago
  Please don't call them gods, and please don't disparage them by the implication of how people talk about them. These are engineers, who made choices, which led to things, which have had huge import. They have feet of clay, like everyone else. They get cranky with time-wasters. Its not a lifestyle. Pike's forays into markov-chain fake identities writing in USENET is not perhaps his most shining moment. Its a student prank. He's notorious (by gossip mainly) as being cranky at the accolytes and the adulation. He is said to dislike it. He also is said to dislike people assuming they can debate "the big man" and do a take-down. I am sure Thompson and Ritchie got a shitload of this: I know in fact, because when I chaired a UUG meeting (AUUG) and they were invited guests, they had "minders" in the local Version-8 community who kept people at bay who were being tiresome at the conference socials. Rock stars get this. Its unavoidable. I don't want to imply any special insight. None of them know me, or would give me the time of day absent some specific reason to engage, and thats fine and normal too. Why should they? Unlike many others, they made choices which did not lead to them vesting billions and billions of dollars. Many other people made choices to use this bell IPR (which they freely gave away) and constructed huge edifices worth collectively in the Trillions of dollars. Very few people get to have this impact on an economy, let alone worldwide. Thompson & Ritchie got the presidents medal for a reason.

jeromenerf 7y ago

Plan9 tools are great to use on thinkpads since they actually have 3 buttons. Most would find a dedicated mouse more appropriate however (the vertical one with 3 buttons and a separate wheel for instance). Plan9 workflow is mouse oriented and it's fantastic. Its keyboard workflow or the lack of it is infuriating, for me, your typical linux/vim guy. The linux mouse oriented workflow, or the lack of it, is equally infuriating for me now that I have used plan9(port), acme, editable dumb terminals, etc. So I hack it in my tools, however I can. I would warn newcomers that experimenting with plan9 and its tools can create strong frustration :)

wnoise 7y ago

There are still some modern laptops with three buttons built in -- primarily ThinkPads, but that's not a bad choice. For the rest, external mice work quite well.

yiyus 7y ago

I have used p9p for years because I like the GUI (in different modern laptops, always without external mouse). Other people prefer huge IDEs, many people prefer vim or emacs, and I also known some extremely good programmers who just use notepad. And yes, I am perfectly happy with that.