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Github isn't a bomber and ICE isn't the PRC. This is more like CAT refusing to sell road construction equipment to the highway department in the PRC. The only

Github isn't a bomber and ICE isn't the PRC. This is more like CAT refusing to sell road construction equipment to the highway department in the PRC. The only thing the cancelation of this contract will do is make those within GitHub who are dissatisfied feel better that they have "done something". It actually accomplishes very little, and I would argue nothing at all.

maxwell 7y ago
> This is more like CAT refusing to sell road construction equipment to the highway department in the PRC. CAT should refuse to do business with organizations that operate concentration camps, including ICE and the CCP.
- LiNeXT 7y ago
  Shouldn't be an issue then since ICE doesn't operate concentration camps.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - ryandrake 7y ago
    Depends on how you want to split hairs. If your organization (in this case, ICE) is at the point where people are arguing technicalities about whether what you’re doing technically qualifies as a concentration camp, I’d argue you are far from where you should be ethically.
    - jariel 7y ago
      There is no 'splitting hairs'; to compare migrants in detention seeking to come into the country as 'concentration camps' is not only wrong, it's deeply insulting. ICE detention is just plainly that, and that's all. Some conditions are poor because facilities are overflowing, not because they are designed that way. Most migrants are economic in nature, there's no pressing need for them to try to cross, and they know it's illegal - moreover - all of those economic migrants clog up the system to the detriment of actual refugees. Of course, the migrants can leave any time - there's a policy in place such that they can chose to return home without having any mark on their record with respect to future ability to migrate to the US, and it's processed generally quickly, within several days. There is really no comparison at all between those detained trying to enter a country, and 'concentration camps' - in terms of motivations, lawfulness, conditions, effects, legal recourse, fallout, etc. - they are in every way different. The PRC camps in China could be referred to as 'concentration camps' because people are arbitrary detained on the basis of their culture, for any duration, they don't have legal recourse, they cannot leave, there is no judicial oversight, there is no freedom of information or freedom of press, they are not allowed any contact with the outside world, and they are put through some very aggressive 'thought control' programs that in many ways is worse than physical torture or confinement. To boot, the system itself is corrupt and prisoners organs are being sold through irregular channels.
    - leereeves 7y ago
      If ICE facilities qualify as concentration camps, then so does every prison. At that point it's no longer a useful term. Except politically, of course, which is why terms like that are abused so often.
      - claudeganon 7y ago
        The only abuse of terms is by people who have difficulty or confronting the political and moral reality of what's happening. Holocaust scholars have already said that drawing these parallels in these specific circumstances is needed to prevent a reprisal of violence and genocide: https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/07/01/an-open-letter-to-the-director-of-the-holocaust-memorial-museum/?fbclid=IwAR1AoKWPKzbxZfxd8ia48BuBjDfbyerfRizy7SZziGGWqnCShfUQ8LFZjyY https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/07/01/an-open-letter-to-t...
        leereeves 7y ago
        You've really gone off the rails if you think enforcing immigration law, as all countries do and the US has done for decades, is going to lead to genocide.
        claudeganon 7y ago
        Sorry, but you’re not going to succeed in gaslighting anyone with these kinds of clearly dishonest talking points. It’s obvious to anyone not entirely lost to right-wing ideology that the Trump administration is built on scapegoating immigrants and targeting them for violence. If you don’t think that has consequences or historical precedent, you’re either oblivious or onboard with all the malice and horror.
        leereeves 7y ago
        You're clearly here to "gaslight" people with extreme rhetoric and hostility, not facts and reason, so I'll simply wish you a wonderful life.
        LiNeXT 7y ago
llamataboot 7y ago
Caterpillar has been targeted for years for selling to the Israeli military https://www.hrw.org/news/2004/11/21/israel-caterpillar-should-suspend-bulldozer-sales https://www.hrw.org/news/2004/11/21/israel-caterpillar-shoul...
ksec 7y ago
> It actually accomplishes very little, and I would argue nothing at all. Yes, I am not from US so I have very little understanding of ICE other than a few policy problems on the surface. Since it would achieve very little, but wouldn't it be better to actually have the contract and has all its profits funded to an organisation against ICE? After all it is not that ICE in itself that is wrong, it is the policy maker or the government. ( Forgive me if this is not correct ) Funding a political side that abolish ICE, wouldn't that be better?
- zer00eyz 7y ago
  The people who are going to use this software likely had their jobs before this administration and will likely have them after. ICE was less of an issue under the previous administration. All this energy and effort would be better spent on getting the current admin out. It is how things work in our top down democracy. The problem is that the votes of most Bay Area companies are going toward people who already align with these goals. TO that end the effort could be better spent on contributing TO organizations that will help advocate for the changes they want. That might be money or time or technical talent...
  - Goladus 7y ago
    All this energy and effort would be better spent on getting the current admin out. For what it's worth, getting the Republicans out is almost certainly what this stunt is about. Maybe not consciously, but the groundwork of propaganda that led to villainization of ICE is certainly oriented around combating Trump and his policies, not actually disbanding ICE. Something like this is a way to help supporters feel engaged, passionate, and committed to the left's immigration policies (or at least attacking the right's), so that they will be more likely to vote and vote favorably in the next election. Breaking up a contract like this won't directly accomplish any other realistic political goals.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
nimbius 7y ago
I disagree. while ICE has been a thing throughout numerous administrations, their conduct has explicitly become more degenerate and reprehensible during this prior two administrations. While they may not be the PRC, they certainly share several predilections, specifically a lack of any real oversight. - The Intercept published a report by the DHS Office of Inspector General revealing that 1,224 sexual abuse complaints while in immigration custody were filed between January 2010 and June 2017. -As part of the 2018 Trump administration's zero tolerance policy, nearly 3,000 minors were separated from their parents, or the adults accompanying them - From 2012 to early 2018, ICE wrongfully arrested and detained 1,488 U.S. citizens, including many who spent months or years in immigration detention. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement#Sexual_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_E... As for protests "doing something" they absolutely do in this case,as github is only valuable for Microsoft so long as they acquire and grow a base of developers to use it. The brand already excludes several foreign nations, likely as part of a policy by Redmond to court the present administration. Their failure to maintain an ICE contract without an exodus of developers would slowly turn their newly acquired developer website into a 21st century hotmail. Github isnt the only player in this field, no matter how badly theyd like developers to think this. Gogs, Gitea, and gitlab especially are all equally suited to quickly and effectively fill any gap Github might present. Most have auto-migration features to quickly ferry code away from Github.
- DuskStar 7y ago
  > - The Intercept published a report by the DHS Office of Inspector General revealing that 1,224 sexual abuse complaints while in immigration custody were filed between January 2010 and June 2017. Any data on what the rate post-Trump has been? Or during the Bush years? Because it's hard to reason from this alone. (Not to mention that the rate of complaints is influenced by a whole bunch of factors other than the rate of incidents - for instance taking complaints seriously might make the number of complaints go up relative to ignoring them or retaliating against the complainants, and rewarding people for making complaints would likely increase the false complaint rate. What we care about is the number of actual incidents, but that's really hard to determine with any level of validity)

maxwell 7y ago

> This is more like CAT refusing to sell road construction equipment to the highway department in the PRC. CAT should refuse to do business with organizations that operate concentration camps, including ICE and the CCP.

LiNeXT 7y ago
Shouldn't be an issue then since ICE doesn't operate concentration camps.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- ryandrake 7y ago
  Depends on how you want to split hairs. If your organization (in this case, ICE) is at the point where people are arguing technicalities about whether what you’re doing technically qualifies as a concentration camp, I’d argue you are far from where you should be ethically.
  - jariel 7y ago
    There is no 'splitting hairs'; to compare migrants in detention seeking to come into the country as 'concentration camps' is not only wrong, it's deeply insulting. ICE detention is just plainly that, and that's all. Some conditions are poor because facilities are overflowing, not because they are designed that way. Most migrants are economic in nature, there's no pressing need for them to try to cross, and they know it's illegal - moreover - all of those economic migrants clog up the system to the detriment of actual refugees. Of course, the migrants can leave any time - there's a policy in place such that they can chose to return home without having any mark on their record with respect to future ability to migrate to the US, and it's processed generally quickly, within several days. There is really no comparison at all between those detained trying to enter a country, and 'concentration camps' - in terms of motivations, lawfulness, conditions, effects, legal recourse, fallout, etc. - they are in every way different. The PRC camps in China could be referred to as 'concentration camps' because people are arbitrary detained on the basis of their culture, for any duration, they don't have legal recourse, they cannot leave, there is no judicial oversight, there is no freedom of information or freedom of press, they are not allowed any contact with the outside world, and they are put through some very aggressive 'thought control' programs that in many ways is worse than physical torture or confinement. To boot, the system itself is corrupt and prisoners organs are being sold through irregular channels.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    If ICE facilities qualify as concentration camps, then so does every prison. At that point it's no longer a useful term. Except politically, of course, which is why terms like that are abused so often.
    - claudeganon 7y ago
      The only abuse of terms is by people who have difficulty or confronting the political and moral reality of what's happening. Holocaust scholars have already said that drawing these parallels in these specific circumstances is needed to prevent a reprisal of violence and genocide: https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/07/01/an-open-letter-to-the-director-of-the-holocaust-memorial-museum/?fbclid=IwAR1AoKWPKzbxZfxd8ia48BuBjDfbyerfRizy7SZziGGWqnCShfUQ8LFZjyY https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/07/01/an-open-letter-to-t...
      - leereeves 7y ago
        You've really gone off the rails if you think enforcing immigration law, as all countries do and the US has done for decades, is going to lead to genocide.
        claudeganon 7y ago
        Sorry, but you’re not going to succeed in gaslighting anyone with these kinds of clearly dishonest talking points. It’s obvious to anyone not entirely lost to right-wing ideology that the Trump administration is built on scapegoating immigrants and targeting them for violence. If you don’t think that has consequences or historical precedent, you’re either oblivious or onboard with all the malice and horror.
        leereeves 7y ago
        You're clearly here to "gaslight" people with extreme rhetoric and hostility, not facts and reason, so I'll simply wish you a wonderful life.
      - LiNeXT 7y ago

llamataboot 7y ago

Caterpillar has been targeted for years for selling to the Israeli military https://www.hrw.org/news/2004/11/21/israel-caterpillar-should-suspend-bulldozer-sales https://www.hrw.org/news/2004/11/21/israel-caterpillar-shoul...

ksec 7y ago

> It actually accomplishes very little, and I would argue nothing at all. Yes, I am not from US so I have very little understanding of ICE other than a few policy problems on the surface. Since it would achieve very little, but wouldn't it be better to actually have the contract and has all its profits funded to an organisation against ICE? After all it is not that ICE in itself that is wrong, it is the policy maker or the government. ( Forgive me if this is not correct ) Funding a political side that abolish ICE, wouldn't that be better?

zer00eyz 7y ago
The people who are going to use this software likely had their jobs before this administration and will likely have them after. ICE was less of an issue under the previous administration. All this energy and effort would be better spent on getting the current admin out. It is how things work in our top down democracy. The problem is that the votes of most Bay Area companies are going toward people who already align with these goals. TO that end the effort could be better spent on contributing TO organizations that will help advocate for the changes they want. That might be money or time or technical talent...
- Goladus 7y ago
  All this energy and effort would be better spent on getting the current admin out. For what it's worth, getting the Republicans out is almost certainly what this stunt is about. Maybe not consciously, but the groundwork of propaganda that led to villainization of ICE is certainly oriented around combating Trump and his policies, not actually disbanding ICE. Something like this is a way to help supporters feel engaged, passionate, and committed to the left's immigration policies (or at least attacking the right's), so that they will be more likely to vote and vote favorably in the next election. Breaking up a contract like this won't directly accomplish any other realistic political goals.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

nimbius 7y ago

I disagree. while ICE has been a thing throughout numerous administrations, their conduct has explicitly become more degenerate and reprehensible during this prior two administrations. While they may not be the PRC, they certainly share several predilections, specifically a lack of any real oversight. - The Intercept published a report by the DHS Office of Inspector General revealing that 1,224 sexual abuse complaints while in immigration custody were filed between January 2010 and June 2017. -As part of the 2018 Trump administration's zero tolerance policy, nearly 3,000 minors were separated from their parents, or the adults accompanying them - From 2012 to early 2018, ICE wrongfully arrested and detained 1,488 U.S. citizens, including many who spent months or years in immigration detention. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement#Sexual_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_E... As for protests "doing something" they absolutely do in this case,as github is only valuable for Microsoft so long as they acquire and grow a base of developers to use it. The brand already excludes several foreign nations, likely as part of a policy by Redmond to court the present administration. Their failure to maintain an ICE contract without an exodus of developers would slowly turn their newly acquired developer website into a 21st century hotmail. Github isnt the only player in this field, no matter how badly theyd like developers to think this. Gogs, Gitea, and gitlab especially are all equally suited to quickly and effectively fill any gap Github might present. Most have auto-migration features to quickly ferry code away from Github.

DuskStar 7y ago
> - The Intercept published a report by the DHS Office of Inspector General revealing that 1,224 sexual abuse complaints while in immigration custody were filed between January 2010 and June 2017. Any data on what the rate post-Trump has been? Or during the Bush years? Because it's hard to reason from this alone. (Not to mention that the rate of complaints is influenced by a whole bunch of factors other than the rate of incidents - for instance taking complaints seriously might make the number of complaints go up relative to ignoring them or retaliating against the complainants, and rewarding people for making complaints would likely increase the false complaint rate. What we care about is the number of actual incidents, but that's really hard to determine with any level of validity)