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Denied service? We're not talking about legislation preventing GitHub from working with ICE, we're talking about public opinion. My (and these developers) opini

by aqme28 7y ago

Denied service? We're not talking about legislation preventing GitHub from working with ICE, we're talking about public opinion. My (and these developers) opinion of GitHub is tarnished by this. If they partner with a far-left organization, it will be a different situation. Companies find a balance. Companies make or break partnerships based on how they affect public opinion (see the recent Chick-fil-A situation)

logifail 7y ago
> We're not talking about legislation preventing GitHub from working with ICE, we're talking about public opinion Which particular fragment of "public opinion"? Allowing public opinion to directly and immediately govern whether something is allowed to happen risks handing power to tiny but vocal - or simply well-funded - groups. https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
Goladus 7y ago
My (and these developers) opinion of GitHub is tarnished by this. Have you considered the extent to which your opinion is influenced by the long-running political propaganda campaigns designed to villainize ICE as much as possible and discourage hard realistic discussion about solving problems? I'm not saying you have to agree with ICE'd methods or what they are doing, but the border situation is not as simple as political opportunists would have you believe.
- drewbug01 7y ago
  I try not to be the one who says "cite your sources" - but what sources do you have for claiming that there's "long-running political propaganda [...] to villainize ICE"? I ask largely because from what I have read (from multiple sources that I trust), the claims made about ICE are largely true - in that they are engaging in inhumane actions against people at the border. To me, from what I have read, it seems well-documented and supported with a lot of testimony, first-hand accounts, video, and images. Satellite photos, even. That's why I'm curious why you're asserting that it's propaganda. I don't see evidence of that.
  - LiNeXT 7y ago
    > in that they are engaging in inhumane actions against people at the border ICE doesn't conduct border operations, that's the domain of Border Patrol. Considering you don't even know this basic fact, what else might you be completely wrong about?
    - drewbug01 7y ago
      I might be wrong about plenty; which is why I asked for some more information (which I’ll note you did not provide). I’ll also note that you are yourself not accurate in stating that “ICE doesn’t conduct border operations” - in fact, ice.gov/about says specifically: > The ERO directorate upholds U.S. immigration law at, within, and beyond our borders. Thus it is not accurate to say that “ICE doesn’t conduct border operations” - they themselves say they do. I think what you’re trying to do is set up then knock down a straw man: I never said anything about patrolling borders, and I’m well aware that CBP is the agency literally patrolling the border. You picked a specific interpretation of a broad statement in a blatant attempt to make me look dumb, which goes against what HN ostensibly stands for.
      - LiNeXT 7y ago
        > Thus it is not accurate to say that “ICE doesn’t conduct border operations” - they themselves say they do. OK, I'll bite. You originally stated: "...in that they are engaging in inhumane actions against people at the border. To me, from what I have read, it seems well-documented and supported with a lot of testimony, first-hand accounts, video, and images. Satellite photos, even." What, exactly, are you referring to? What ICE operations have occurred at the border involving any of the above claims? > I think what you’re trying to do is set up then knock down a straw man: I never said anything about patrolling borders, and I’m well aware that CBP is the agency literally patrolling the border. No, I assumed that your reference to "satellite photos" at the border involving ICE is probably wrong considering the border itself isn't really their domain. Whatever the ERO directorate "upholding U.S. immigration law at" the border may mean, it probably doesn't involve any spectacular incidents captured on satellite photos or video. But maybe I'm wrong and you have a source to show me otherwise. > You picked a specific interpretation of a broad statement in a blatant attempt to make me look dumb, which goes against what HN ostensibly stands for. Not knowing the exact specificity of what government agency performs what functions in a particular area doesn't imply stupidity; so no, I wasn't attempting to make you look dumb. I was, however, attempting to get you to consider that you could be wrong. [Edit: reading my original comment again, I will concede it was a bit of a smug snipe. Clearly too smug, considering what you found on the ICE about page.]

by aqme28 7y ago

logifail 7y ago

> We're not talking about legislation preventing GitHub from working with ICE, we're talking about public opinion Which particular fragment of "public opinion"? Allowing public opinion to directly and immediately govern whether something is allowed to happen risks handing power to tiny but vocal - or simply well-funded - groups. https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...

Goladus 7y ago

My (and these developers) opinion of GitHub is tarnished by this. Have you considered the extent to which your opinion is influenced by the long-running political propaganda campaigns designed to villainize ICE as much as possible and discourage hard realistic discussion about solving problems? I'm not saying you have to agree with ICE'd methods or what they are doing, but the border situation is not as simple as political opportunists would have you believe.

drewbug01 7y ago
I try not to be the one who says "cite your sources" - but what sources do you have for claiming that there's "long-running political propaganda [...] to villainize ICE"? I ask largely because from what I have read (from multiple sources that I trust), the claims made about ICE are largely true - in that they are engaging in inhumane actions against people at the border. To me, from what I have read, it seems well-documented and supported with a lot of testimony, first-hand accounts, video, and images. Satellite photos, even. That's why I'm curious why you're asserting that it's propaganda. I don't see evidence of that.
- LiNeXT 7y ago
  > in that they are engaging in inhumane actions against people at the border ICE doesn't conduct border operations, that's the domain of Border Patrol. Considering you don't even know this basic fact, what else might you be completely wrong about?
  - drewbug01 7y ago
    I might be wrong about plenty; which is why I asked for some more information (which I’ll note you did not provide). I’ll also note that you are yourself not accurate in stating that “ICE doesn’t conduct border operations” - in fact, ice.gov/about says specifically: > The ERO directorate upholds U.S. immigration law at, within, and beyond our borders. Thus it is not accurate to say that “ICE doesn’t conduct border operations” - they themselves say they do. I think what you’re trying to do is set up then knock down a straw man: I never said anything about patrolling borders, and I’m well aware that CBP is the agency literally patrolling the border. You picked a specific interpretation of a broad statement in a blatant attempt to make me look dumb, which goes against what HN ostensibly stands for.
    - LiNeXT 7y ago
      > Thus it is not accurate to say that “ICE doesn’t conduct border operations” - they themselves say they do. OK, I'll bite. You originally stated: "...in that they are engaging in inhumane actions against people at the border. To me, from what I have read, it seems well-documented and supported with a lot of testimony, first-hand accounts, video, and images. Satellite photos, even." What, exactly, are you referring to? What ICE operations have occurred at the border involving any of the above claims? > I think what you’re trying to do is set up then knock down a straw man: I never said anything about patrolling borders, and I’m well aware that CBP is the agency literally patrolling the border. No, I assumed that your reference to "satellite photos" at the border involving ICE is probably wrong considering the border itself isn't really their domain. Whatever the ERO directorate "upholding U.S. immigration law at" the border may mean, it probably doesn't involve any spectacular incidents captured on satellite photos or video. But maybe I'm wrong and you have a source to show me otherwise. > You picked a specific interpretation of a broad statement in a blatant attempt to make me look dumb, which goes against what HN ostensibly stands for. Not knowing the exact specificity of what government agency performs what functions in a particular area doesn't imply stupidity; so no, I wasn't attempting to make you look dumb. I was, however, attempting to get you to consider that you could be wrong. [Edit: reading my original comment again, I will concede it was a bit of a smug snipe. Clearly too smug, considering what you found on the ICE about page.]