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The LA Times has a (pay)-wall that keeps me from illegally reading their content, so I don't know what this article says. But I personally think that uncontrol

The LA Times has a (pay)-wall that keeps me from illegally reading their content, so I don't know what this article says. But I personally think that uncontrolled migration flows lead to horrific human trafficking problems. The rapes and murders that get committed along this flow because we don't control our border as well as we did 20 years ago are unconscionable. Yes, the next generation will vote Democrat, due to America's birthright citizen situation. But is that really worth the cost? Github should help ICE do the best job that it can.

SolaceQuantum 7y ago
"because we don't control our border as well as we did 20 years ago are unconscionable." From what I understand we actually control our border much harder than we did 20 or even 30 years ago.
- romaaeterna 7y ago
  It's possible that your understanding is incorrect: https://imgur.com/4yyWYuM https://imgur.com/4yyWYuM And remember that the numbers in the above graph aren't even population adjusted. This doesn't cover the Trump years, but deportations are even lower under Trump than Obama.
  - bitcurious 7y ago
    Your graph says little about border control and a lot about enforcement inside the US, which ironically can be partially explained by harsher border control. In southern states it used to be the case that Mexican workers would come over for day labor, or for the harvest season, and then leave to lead their lives in Mexico. Once border control got a bit more serious people started coming to stay.
    - romaaeterna 7y ago
      That's not a great description of immigration history to the US. See for example the Eisenhower administration efforts in this regard as far back as the 1950s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback
pjc50 7y ago
Controlling the border doesn't stop the flow. Only dealing with the crises in places like Guatemala and Honduras will do that. Sending people back significantly increases the likelihood that they will be murdered. But ICE aren't even doing that; they're putting people in indefinite detention in vast numbers.
- romaaeterna 7y ago
  Surprisingly, stopping the flow really does stop the flow. Plenty of countries control their borders, we have in the past, and we could even do so again if there was the political will.
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    Nobody cared before WW1. Borders and passports became more widespread and things to enforce as we marched to war. Passports that go back furthest were for the elite, when a 16th or 17th century printed (or written) passport promise were between the elites, and actually stood for something, but the border? Didn't matter. Stopping the flow doesn't stop it, it just pushes to less visible but far harder to control channels. Frequently more dangerous channels like inside containers, refrigerated trucks, boats in the middle of the night. You will never stop the flow as long as there are third world nations who are being sold "a better life" via people traffickers, or don't have political or economic forces effectively demanding they migrate.
    - romaaeterna 7y ago
      > Nobody cared before WW1 The Chinese Exclusion Act was passed in 1882. > Stopping the flow doesn't stop it, it just pushes to less visible but far harder to control channels. Frequently more dangerous channels like inside containers, refrigerated trucks, boats in the middle of the night. These dangerous channels tend to be more and more used when internal enforcement mechanisms are abandoned. The dangerous and often fatal migrant flows across the Mediterranean in recent years exploded when countries on the other side stopped turning boats and migrants back. Paradoxically, it's the immigration enthusiasts that lead to the massive flows that then lead to the human tragedies.
minimuffins 7y ago
What are you reading that suggests the border is less controlled now than in 1999?
helen___keller 7y ago
> Yes, the next generation will vote Democrat, due to America's birthright citizen situation The next generation will vote Democrat if the opposition continues to make absolutely no effort to appeal to the next generation. Don't blame birthright citizenship for bad politics.
drewbug01 7y ago
If ICE simply did their job in a humane but effective fashion, I think conversation around the agency would be far different. However, the agency has - in the course of their duties - committed horrible acts that fly in the face of what Americans claim to value. They continue to do so, and the "Dear Github" letter linked in the article outlines them: https://github.com/drop-ice/dear-github-2.0/ https://github.com/drop-ice/dear-github-2.0/ The problem isn't simply that they're enforcing immigration law. It's _how_ they're doing it.
- chance_state 7y ago
  > The problem isn't simply that they're enforcing immigration law. It's _how_ they're doing it. This may be your perspective, but I can assure you that the desire for open borders and "Abolish[ing] ICE" are very real among liberals in America. There's an example in this very thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21704157 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21704157
  - kaibee 7y ago
    > the desire for open borders and "Abolish[ing] ICE" are very real among liberals in America. Yes, abolishing ICE will take us back to the pre-borders time of... checks notes March 1st, 2003.
- downerending 7y ago
  Re "horrible acts", this doesn't sound likely, considering the general lack of documentation or bipartisan outrage. Do you have a preferred link with a stolid, well-documented account of the worst abuses?
  - drewbug01 7y ago
    The articles linked in the "Dear Github" letter should suffice to answer your question.
  - openasocket 7y ago
    This biggest one for me is this: https://www.aclu.org/cases/damus-v-mcaleenan https://www.aclu.org/cases/damus-v-mcaleenan . ICE's position is that they should be able to detain all people who are legally petitioning for asylum without any bail hearings.
kick 7y ago
Immigrants, regardless of legality, have been consistently shown to have lower rates of rape, murder, and crime in general than good old Texans. https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/irpb-4-update.pdf https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/irpb-4-up...
- romaaeterna 7y ago
  The problem, if you are unaware of it, is that they are raped and murdered getting here. Illegal immigration to the US is a trail of tears.
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
The next generation of most developed nations will lean more left, and in the US vote Democrat for reasons entirely unrelated to birthright. Simply put the boomers are currently the retirement generation, as they age out of the system, the system will skew less unfairly to the right. (Older voters naturally lean a little right despite most parties of the right having abandoned small c conservatism).
whateveracct 7y ago
> due to America's birthright citizen situation Birthright citizenship is an incredibly foundational American principle. Acting like it's some oddity that exists for political gain is just plain wrong.

SolaceQuantum 7y ago

"because we don't control our border as well as we did 20 years ago are unconscionable." From what I understand we actually control our border much harder than we did 20 or even 30 years ago.

romaaeterna 7y ago
It's possible that your understanding is incorrect: https://imgur.com/4yyWYuM https://imgur.com/4yyWYuM And remember that the numbers in the above graph aren't even population adjusted. This doesn't cover the Trump years, but deportations are even lower under Trump than Obama.
- bitcurious 7y ago
  Your graph says little about border control and a lot about enforcement inside the US, which ironically can be partially explained by harsher border control. In southern states it used to be the case that Mexican workers would come over for day labor, or for the harvest season, and then leave to lead their lives in Mexico. Once border control got a bit more serious people started coming to stay.
  - romaaeterna 7y ago
    That's not a great description of immigration history to the US. See for example the Eisenhower administration efforts in this regard as far back as the 1950s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback

pjc50 7y ago

Controlling the border doesn't stop the flow. Only dealing with the crises in places like Guatemala and Honduras will do that. Sending people back significantly increases the likelihood that they will be murdered. But ICE aren't even doing that; they're putting people in indefinite detention in vast numbers.

romaaeterna 7y ago
Surprisingly, stopping the flow really does stop the flow. Plenty of countries control their borders, we have in the past, and we could even do so again if there was the political will.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  Nobody cared before WW1. Borders and passports became more widespread and things to enforce as we marched to war. Passports that go back furthest were for the elite, when a 16th or 17th century printed (or written) passport promise were between the elites, and actually stood for something, but the border? Didn't matter. Stopping the flow doesn't stop it, it just pushes to less visible but far harder to control channels. Frequently more dangerous channels like inside containers, refrigerated trucks, boats in the middle of the night. You will never stop the flow as long as there are third world nations who are being sold "a better life" via people traffickers, or don't have political or economic forces effectively demanding they migrate.
  - romaaeterna 7y ago
    > Nobody cared before WW1 The Chinese Exclusion Act was passed in 1882. > Stopping the flow doesn't stop it, it just pushes to less visible but far harder to control channels. Frequently more dangerous channels like inside containers, refrigerated trucks, boats in the middle of the night. These dangerous channels tend to be more and more used when internal enforcement mechanisms are abandoned. The dangerous and often fatal migrant flows across the Mediterranean in recent years exploded when countries on the other side stopped turning boats and migrants back. Paradoxically, it's the immigration enthusiasts that lead to the massive flows that then lead to the human tragedies.

minimuffins 7y ago

What are you reading that suggests the border is less controlled now than in 1999?

helen___keller 7y ago

> Yes, the next generation will vote Democrat, due to America's birthright citizen situation The next generation will vote Democrat if the opposition continues to make absolutely no effort to appeal to the next generation. Don't blame birthright citizenship for bad politics.

drewbug01 7y ago

If ICE simply did their job in a humane but effective fashion, I think conversation around the agency would be far different. However, the agency has - in the course of their duties - committed horrible acts that fly in the face of what Americans claim to value. They continue to do so, and the "Dear Github" letter linked in the article outlines them: https://github.com/drop-ice/dear-github-2.0/ https://github.com/drop-ice/dear-github-2.0/ The problem isn't simply that they're enforcing immigration law. It's _how_ they're doing it.

chance_state 7y ago
> The problem isn't simply that they're enforcing immigration law. It's _how_ they're doing it. This may be your perspective, but I can assure you that the desire for open borders and "Abolish[ing] ICE" are very real among liberals in America. There's an example in this very thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21704157 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21704157
- kaibee 7y ago
  > the desire for open borders and "Abolish[ing] ICE" are very real among liberals in America. Yes, abolishing ICE will take us back to the pre-borders time of... checks notes March 1st, 2003.
downerending 7y ago
Re "horrible acts", this doesn't sound likely, considering the general lack of documentation or bipartisan outrage. Do you have a preferred link with a stolid, well-documented account of the worst abuses?
- drewbug01 7y ago
  The articles linked in the "Dear Github" letter should suffice to answer your question.
- openasocket 7y ago
  This biggest one for me is this: https://www.aclu.org/cases/damus-v-mcaleenan https://www.aclu.org/cases/damus-v-mcaleenan . ICE's position is that they should be able to detain all people who are legally petitioning for asylum without any bail hearings.

kick 7y ago

Immigrants, regardless of legality, have been consistently shown to have lower rates of rape, murder, and crime in general than good old Texans. https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/irpb-4-update.pdf https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/irpb-4-up...

romaaeterna 7y ago
The problem, if you are unaware of it, is that they are raped and murdered getting here. Illegal immigration to the US is a trail of tears.

NeedMoreTea 7y ago

The next generation of most developed nations will lean more left, and in the US vote Democrat for reasons entirely unrelated to birthright. Simply put the boomers are currently the retirement generation, as they age out of the system, the system will skew less unfairly to the right. (Older voters naturally lean a little right despite most parties of the right having abandoned small c conservatism).

whateveracct 7y ago

> due to America's birthright citizen situation Birthright citizenship is an incredibly foundational American principle. Acting like it's some oddity that exists for political gain is just plain wrong.