4 ms·

And in things without a stock price, like the MTA. Isn't the second avenue subway exactly what you get when there's exactly one player in the game?

by iguy 7y ago

hanniabu 7y ago
Not sure why you're downvoted. MTA basically has a license to print money. Their expenses keep growing while the service keeps deteriorating and fares increasing. They are very poorly managed and awarded the contract with no competition. The MTA has become too big to fail.
kevinqiu1 7y ago
I think the MTAs woes are unique to the MTA/management of the MTA and not lack of competition. Paris and Madrid have no problem building and operating trains at reasonable costs even though they also operate with no competition.
- iguy 7y ago
  I'd argue the problem is endemic to large stationary organizations, but some do a better job than others at keeping it at bay. It's interesting to wonder why. I think one aspect is the degree to which politically powerful are willing to fight it. Famously Stalin actually cared that the Moscow metro worked well, and it did, in a country otherwise crippled by complacent behemoths. Perhaps the Parisian elite likewise take more pride in having a metro which works OK, are willing to spend more political capital fighting for it. They feel some obligation to keep up with Brussels & Berlin, perhaps that substitutes for competition?
StuffedParrot 7y ago
I would kill for second avenue subway in 99% of America. It only sucks in Manhattan. MTA is the worst, except it’s also the best mass transit in the country.
- bluGill 7y ago
  If we could build subways for about of half the current low price by world standards (Spain or Turkey) cost most cities would have subways. However since New York "insists" on paying about 7x what Spain would for the same amount of subway it is just barely worth it to build the SAS, and anything with even slightly less ridership potential is a waste of money. I have seen a lot of explanations of why the US pays so much more - they tend to not hold up. Note that last time congress asked the question the bill did not allow examining non-US construction for the report - something to write your congressman about.
  - StuffedParrot 7y ago
    > However since New York "insists" on paying about 7x what Spain would for the same amount of subway it is just barely worth it to build the SAS, and anything with even slightly less ridership potential is a waste of money. Literally any amount spent on the subway will be returned in rent to landlords. You're just looking from the wrong perspective.
ummonk 7y ago
Eh, in the Bay Area we have plenty of public transportation agencies / systems (which all coordinate really poorly with each other), and none of them are great (though some are more cost-efficient than others, e.g. Caltrain vs. Bart).
- ves 7y ago
  None of them compete, effectively, since they’re in different coverage areas. Except for bart, basically. And I certainly treat bart and MUNI as competitive products for commuting to work, although it doesn’t feel like MUNI does...
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    BART and MUNI have fundamentally different orientations, despite overlapping service along the Market Street subway. BART's service is long-train (up to 10 cars) through service on fully dedicated trackways following a single through route within San Francisco. If you happen to be transiting any points between Colma and Embarcadero strickly along that route, BART is your best bet. MUNI Metro serves multiple endpoints throughout San Francisco, several lines of which transit the upper level of the Market Street subway. Outside that route, the metro shares rights of way with street traffic, resulting in drastically less predictable schedules. The requirement to manage tight-radius curves and street traffic also limits the length of metro trainsets to a maximum of two coupled trolleys. The results aren't pretty, for MUNI. But that's all but a given under the environment they're operating in.
    - ummonk 7y ago
      >The results aren't pretty, for MUNI. But that's all but a given under the environment they're operating in. Not necessarily. They could exclusively run fast 4 car trains along the length of the subway, with transfers to street lines. That would prevent a single street-level train from backing up the whole system. http://newmunimetro.com/m-market/ http://newmunimetro.com/m-market/
      - 7y ago

And in things without a stock price, like the MTA. Isn't the second avenue subway exactly what you get when there's exactly one player in the game?

by iguy 7y ago

And in things without a stock price, like the MTA. Isn't the second avenue subway exactly what you get when there's exactly one player in the game?

hanniabu 7y ago

Not sure why you're downvoted. MTA basically has a license to print money. Their expenses keep growing while the service keeps deteriorating and fares increasing. They are very poorly managed and awarded the contract with no competition. The MTA has become too big to fail.

kevinqiu1 7y ago

I think the MTAs woes are unique to the MTA/management of the MTA and not lack of competition. Paris and Madrid have no problem building and operating trains at reasonable costs even though they also operate with no competition.

iguy 7y ago
I'd argue the problem is endemic to large stationary organizations, but some do a better job than others at keeping it at bay. It's interesting to wonder why. I think one aspect is the degree to which politically powerful are willing to fight it. Famously Stalin actually cared that the Moscow metro worked well, and it did, in a country otherwise crippled by complacent behemoths. Perhaps the Parisian elite likewise take more pride in having a metro which works OK, are willing to spend more political capital fighting for it. They feel some obligation to keep up with Brussels & Berlin, perhaps that substitutes for competition?

StuffedParrot 7y ago

I would kill for second avenue subway in 99% of America. It only sucks in Manhattan. MTA is the worst, except it’s also the best mass transit in the country.

bluGill 7y ago
If we could build subways for about of half the current low price by world standards (Spain or Turkey) cost most cities would have subways. However since New York "insists" on paying about 7x what Spain would for the same amount of subway it is just barely worth it to build the SAS, and anything with even slightly less ridership potential is a waste of money. I have seen a lot of explanations of why the US pays so much more - they tend to not hold up. Note that last time congress asked the question the bill did not allow examining non-US construction for the report - something to write your congressman about.
- StuffedParrot 7y ago
  > However since New York "insists" on paying about 7x what Spain would for the same amount of subway it is just barely worth it to build the SAS, and anything with even slightly less ridership potential is a waste of money. Literally any amount spent on the subway will be returned in rent to landlords. You're just looking from the wrong perspective.

ummonk 7y ago

Eh, in the Bay Area we have plenty of public transportation agencies / systems (which all coordinate really poorly with each other), and none of them are great (though some are more cost-efficient than others, e.g. Caltrain vs. Bart).

ves 7y ago
None of them compete, effectively, since they’re in different coverage areas. Except for bart, basically. And I certainly treat bart and MUNI as competitive products for commuting to work, although it doesn’t feel like MUNI does...
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  BART and MUNI have fundamentally different orientations, despite overlapping service along the Market Street subway. BART's service is long-train (up to 10 cars) through service on fully dedicated trackways following a single through route within San Francisco. If you happen to be transiting any points between Colma and Embarcadero strickly along that route, BART is your best bet. MUNI Metro serves multiple endpoints throughout San Francisco, several lines of which transit the upper level of the Market Street subway. Outside that route, the metro shares rights of way with street traffic, resulting in drastically less predictable schedules. The requirement to manage tight-radius curves and street traffic also limits the length of metro trainsets to a maximum of two coupled trolleys. The results aren't pretty, for MUNI. But that's all but a given under the environment they're operating in.
  - ummonk 7y ago
    >The results aren't pretty, for MUNI. But that's all but a given under the environment they're operating in. Not necessarily. They could exclusively run fast 4 car trains along the length of the subway, with transfers to street lines. That would prevent a single street-level train from backing up the whole system. http://newmunimetro.com/m-market/ http://newmunimetro.com/m-market/
    - 7y ago