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Misleading headline - if you disable location services everything works as expected: > To be clear, completely turning off Location Services does work The onl

Misleading headline - if you disable location services everything works as expected: > To be clear, completely turning off Location Services does work The only issue is that there are some system location services that cannot be toggled individually, like you can for individual apps. So if you want to turn them off, you have to turn location services off entirely. This is still not great of course but much less dramatic than what the headline implies.

amenod 7y ago
So it is just a dark UX pattern?
alistairSH 7y ago
But, one of the "app" toggles is labelled "System Services" which apparently only disables some system services. I would expect that disable all system service/location functionality (while leaving me the option to enable some other single app). For my use case, namely limiting access to 3rd party apps, this mostly works. But, the toggles could be named better.
- ducadveritatem 7y ago
  But there isn't a general "System Services" toggle. There are a ton of specific toggles categorized as "System Services".
  - alistairSH 7y ago
    Sure, but given some of them are enumerated, along with other apps, I would expect turning them all off to effectively disable all system use of location services. By exposing any of them, Apple sets the expectation that those that are exposed are all of them.
DaveSchmindel 7y ago
I think this particular point is what the article wishes to drive home. It seems awfully convenient that Apple is the only entity that can still obtain the user's location after giving them a user experience that makes it seem they have complete control over every possible feature that could access that information...
- uonyx 7y ago
  Convenient system services such as "Find My iPhone"... this title is dramatic.
  - joshfraser 7y ago
    Find my iPhone is toggled off though.
- djrogers 7y ago
  > Apple is the only entity that can still obtain the user's location Do you know that to be the case - ie is Apple obtaining your location, or is it your device obtaining your location?
- ducadveritatem 7y ago
  >It seems awfully convenient that Apple is the only entity that can still obtain the user's location Except there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that this is the case. All that is established is that if the user has explicitly opted in to the global location services option, then the device (system) does indeed periodically access location data. No one is alleging that any information is available to or shared with Apple outside of the established methods documented in the privacy policy.
frandroid 7y ago
I guess if you "can't tell" the offending internal app not to collect the data, it "hasn't been told not to", and thus the title is incorrect. But wow, that is quite a literalist view of the issue.
- mffnbs 7y ago
  Alternatively, if you do tell the offending internal app to stop via the system toggle, it stops.
throwGuardian 7y ago
But but Apple has spent millions branding itself as the privacy focused alterative to Android. Is it really possible that Apple lies about how privacy friendly their products are? Are we all to trust the Apple apologists who'll jump through hoops to excuse these findings? Were we, the users, holding the phone wrong and causing antenna-gate? [1] Were our tight pants to blame for the bending iPhone plus models? [2] When Apple purposefully slowed our 1.5 year old iPhone to a crawl, after an iOS update, was it us hastening the degradatiom of the measily iPhone batteries? [3] [1]: https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/62034/antennagate https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/62034/antennagate [2]: https://youtu.be/qkNlfMC1lzE https://youtu.be/qkNlfMC1lzE [3]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42615378 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42615378
- ntsplnkv2 7y ago
  It's always funny when Apple comes up, it's almost like a holy crusade against them. Apple is far more pro-privacy than its competitors, because its chief competitor requires reduction in privacy to make money.
  - jgtrosh 7y ago
    That's what you get when you build a walled garden and then fail to deliver on your promises. That breaks the suspension of disbelief. The walled garden is a fundamentally immoral way to practically implement security features; but when the feature falls short you can't hide the wrong behind the good anymore.
    - ntsplnkv2 7y ago
      I just don't see how it's immoral. That seems to be a stretch, and again, goes back to my claim of "religious crusade." Morality? Really? From Apple, we expect perfection. They're trying to be pro privacy, so when they aren't, the pitchforks come out. Meanwhile Android's sole purpose is less privacy to feed into Google's business. There are certain things I WANT to be a walled garden. Anything that holds my information, I would prefer that less people have potential access to that. And Apple is the only one who leads the way in this regard in true consumer products. Despite not being perfect, at least they put some effort in.
bubblethink 7y ago
>Misleading headline - if you disable location services everything works as expected: Well, if you don't turn your phone on, you won't share the location either. And what information does that add ?

amenod 7y ago

So it is just a dark UX pattern?

alistairSH 7y ago

But, one of the "app" toggles is labelled "System Services" which apparently only disables some system services. I would expect that disable all system service/location functionality (while leaving me the option to enable some other single app). For my use case, namely limiting access to 3rd party apps, this mostly works. But, the toggles could be named better.

ducadveritatem 7y ago
But there isn't a general "System Services" toggle. There are a ton of specific toggles categorized as "System Services".
- alistairSH 7y ago
  Sure, but given some of them are enumerated, along with other apps, I would expect turning them all off to effectively disable all system use of location services. By exposing any of them, Apple sets the expectation that those that are exposed are all of them.

DaveSchmindel 7y ago

I think this particular point is what the article wishes to drive home. It seems awfully convenient that Apple is the only entity that can still obtain the user's location after giving them a user experience that makes it seem they have complete control over every possible feature that could access that information...

uonyx 7y ago
Convenient system services such as "Find My iPhone"... this title is dramatic.
- joshfraser 7y ago
  Find my iPhone is toggled off though.
djrogers 7y ago
> Apple is the only entity that can still obtain the user's location Do you know that to be the case - ie is Apple obtaining your location, or is it your device obtaining your location?
ducadveritatem 7y ago
>It seems awfully convenient that Apple is the only entity that can still obtain the user's location Except there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that this is the case. All that is established is that if the user has explicitly opted in to the global location services option, then the device (system) does indeed periodically access location data. No one is alleging that any information is available to or shared with Apple outside of the established methods documented in the privacy policy.

frandroid 7y ago

I guess if you "can't tell" the offending internal app not to collect the data, it "hasn't been told not to", and thus the title is incorrect. But wow, that is quite a literalist view of the issue.

mffnbs 7y ago
Alternatively, if you do tell the offending internal app to stop via the system toggle, it stops.

throwGuardian 7y ago

But but Apple has spent millions branding itself as the privacy focused alterative to Android. Is it really possible that Apple lies about how privacy friendly their products are? Are we all to trust the Apple apologists who'll jump through hoops to excuse these findings? Were we, the users, holding the phone wrong and causing antenna-gate? [1] Were our tight pants to blame for the bending iPhone plus models? [2] When Apple purposefully slowed our 1.5 year old iPhone to a crawl, after an iOS update, was it us hastening the degradatiom of the measily iPhone batteries? [3] [1]: https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/62034/antennagate https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/62034/antennagate [2]: https://youtu.be/qkNlfMC1lzE https://youtu.be/qkNlfMC1lzE [3]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42615378 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42615378

ntsplnkv2 7y ago
It's always funny when Apple comes up, it's almost like a holy crusade against them. Apple is far more pro-privacy than its competitors, because its chief competitor requires reduction in privacy to make money.
- jgtrosh 7y ago
  That's what you get when you build a walled garden and then fail to deliver on your promises. That breaks the suspension of disbelief. The walled garden is a fundamentally immoral way to practically implement security features; but when the feature falls short you can't hide the wrong behind the good anymore.
  - ntsplnkv2 7y ago
    I just don't see how it's immoral. That seems to be a stretch, and again, goes back to my claim of "religious crusade." Morality? Really? From Apple, we expect perfection. They're trying to be pro privacy, so when they aren't, the pitchforks come out. Meanwhile Android's sole purpose is less privacy to feed into Google's business. There are certain things I WANT to be a walled garden. Anything that holds my information, I would prefer that less people have potential access to that. And Apple is the only one who leads the way in this regard in true consumer products. Despite not being perfect, at least they put some effort in.

bubblethink 7y ago

>Misleading headline - if you disable location services everything works as expected: Well, if you don't turn your phone on, you won't share the location either. And what information does that add ?