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I think it's scary when you first realize you have to charge users. (Or to raise your price on them). But, as long as you talk to them, sometimes it can surpris

I think it's scary when you first realize you have to charge users. (Or to raise your price on them). But, as long as you talk to them, sometimes it can surprise you how receptive they are. When I was an SAT tutor I started charging $20/hour. I was inexperienced and a bit younger than most of my clients, so I figured I couldn't charge much. After awhile, I decided I wanted a higher wage if I got new clients. But, how much? I decided to ask for $30 from new clients. No one argued, or showed any displeasure. Wow! But, had I not gone high enough? The next time I decided I wanted more, I made the decision to jump it to $60/hour just to see if anyone would take it. And... everyone did. Without question. In order to get paid you have to ask. And, it's sometimes shocking how much people will pay you. Don't be afraid to ask for more.

prateekdayal 16y ago
Yes .. we experimented a bit with our pricing too. Raised it from USD 25.95 to USD 49.95 with virtually no impact on conversions. Thanks to Eric Ries for suggesting this on a call where we discussed Muziboo with him. He asked us if we had ever raised our prices and when we said no, he recommended that we double them and see the results :)
axod 16y ago
FWIW, you don't have to charge users. Ad supported/affiliate marketing is a pretty viable business model and will often fit better than trying to charge end users.
- keiferski 16y ago
  Rather than downvote you, I'll disagree in a reply. Ads are an extremely unreliable business model. If you want to be an entrepreneur, run a business. If you want to run a business, sell stuff. Don't fall into the trap of "oh, I'll just tack some ads on later and we'll be fine."
  - axod 16y ago
    > "Ads are an extremely unreliable business model." How much money do you make from advertising revenue that allows you to quantify specifically how reliable it is? I'd question if you have enough data at your disposal to make a statistically valid assessment. You can't disagree with data, and it's only unreliable if you don't know what you're doing.
    - lyudmil 16y ago
      How about the fact that most successful businesses that have ever existed have charged for their products? Why is this data that can safely be ignored? It's the most proven business model out there. Furthermore, it takes time to get good at anything. As you implied, making money from advertising is a skill, so how long does it take for you to get good enough at it to support yourself? Charging for things is simply more conservative. It's for people who don't want to risk going under while learning how to advertise.
      - axod 16y ago
        There's pretty substantial industries that are built on advertising revenue - free papers, television, and the internet. Over the last 15 years countless websites have proven you can make substantial amounts of money from advertising income. It's a proven business model. Getting paid subscribers isn't trivial either. You need to learn as you go with either approach.
        lyudmil 16y ago
        Advertising was, for the most part, invented for traditional media (papers, radio, television). In many ways traditional media and the marketing industry are the same thing, so bringing that up as an example of a proven business model doesn't really say much. As far as the Internet, how many publicly traded Internet companies actually make their profits primarily from advertising? Okay, all the search engines obviously, but who else? I just don't think you can say that ad-revenue-based models are as proven of a business model as just selling things.
- wensing 16y ago
  Stormpulse has around 5 million uniques per year and the ad model still isn't viable without destroying the user experience. In other words, you need more traffic than most people can fathom.
  - axod 16y ago
    It's not the amount of traffic, it's the fit between your users and the advertising, how targeted they are, intent, etc etc. Also it totally depends on the service/product. For stormpulse I don't think advertising supported is probably the right idea unless it's made more mainstream. For example I'd start a "enter your email to get local weather reports free". Build up a massive email list, then start including promotional adverts at the top/bottom of each mailing. You'd be sending out a large amount of mails, to a large amount of people... I think it could generate a good revenue. It's not as simple as slapping up some ads and going home. This is the mistake I think most people make.
    - wensing 16y ago
      Let's boil it down to eCPM. What is your eCPM going to be? Multiple that by impressions and tell me how you're going to support N employees on that revenue.
      - axod 16y ago
        For what? What website? One of my websites generates $20 eCPM. Another generates $0.10 eCPM :/ What's your service going to cost? Multiply that by paying users and tell me how you're going to support N employees... I don't think arguing over this is useful - making money out of advertising isn't rocket science, but it does require learning and experience.
        wensing 16y ago
        It's important for bootstrappers to understand the mass traffic that's needed for advertising to fuel growth. $20 eCPM means to have just a $200k/yr. business you need 10 million impressions per year. $0.10 eCPM means you need 2 billion.
- charliepark 16y ago
  The OP was making $60 per hour per user. Is there any advertiser in the world who'd pay $60 to "sponsor an hour" with them for access to a single member of the OP's userbase?
  - axod 16y ago
    Making $60 per hour per user isn't scalable. You can only service one user at a time. So it's apples + oranges comparison there.
- ahoyhere 16y ago
  The metaphor I use with my startup students is this: PPC (even banner) advertising is like scrounging for scraps at the table of someone successful. AND, of course, if the ads work -- if the advertisers get their money worth -- then of course the ads are leading your users away from your app, which means of course a lower rate of returns. Ad-supported biz models are difficult to achieve, fickle, counter-productive and, frankly, more work than charging people.
  - axod 16y ago
    That's a ridiculous metaphor which completely misunderstands advertising. Your metaphor would be more correct if you said it's like scrounging for scraps at the table of millions of successful people all at the same time. But you're not "scrounging for scraps". You're selling exposure, mindshare and traffic to advertisers willing to pay for it. You obviously haven't been successful with ad-supported.
    - ahoyhere 16y ago
      Nope, you're mistaken. I've made tens of thousands on ads... and hundreds of thousands on products. Products that cost money. It's easier to control, more rewarding intellectually (because your interests & customer interess are in sync), and much more profitable -- without counting on a stroke of luck. If people pay you a percentage of their cash flow, that's a mere scrap. Sell your own product and you get the lion's share.
      - axod 16y ago
        Well, take your numbers, and reverse them for me /shrug/
        ahoyhere 16y ago
        That doesn't invalidate my metaphor. If an advertiser is willing to pay you $x then you can be guaranteed they're earning $x * 2 -- or more. If you had the product instead, and were the advertiser, you could be the one making a lot more money. Advertising expenditure is always a sliver of total expected revenue, except in two rare cases: when a company bets the farm on an ad campaign, and when the advertiser is a startup running on VC. Therefore, the amount of money the ad generates will almost always be more than it costs. That is indisputable. Ergo, making products is a better way to capture more money.
neovive 16y ago
I'm learning this the hard way. It's a great introduction to sales when you stop giving something away and actually charging money. You instinctively begin justifying costs based on features/benefits, value/ROI, etc. Then you start reading books on sales, only to realize you are already doing most of things they talk about :). It also changes the way you plan and prioritize your development objectives -- you begin approaching your project as a real business instead of just a website. When you are ready to begin your next project, you now have a wealth of business experience to bring to the table along with any development/domain knowledge.
- unoti 16y ago
  The ideas we're talking about here are discussed thoroughly in the surprisingly fascinating book "Winning through Intimidation." My ex-girlfriend was a touchy-feely people person, a trainer by trade. She often cited that book as being straight from the devil, the antithesis of everything she believed in with regard to motivating people. So I bought the book as a joke, to annoy her with its presence on my bookshelf. Then I started reading it one day, and it actually has a ton of really fantastic business and sales ideas that are not evil at all. The thesis of the book is that for your business to succeed, you need to project an image of success and confidence. The book goes through dozens of specific ways to do this, and asking for more money is one of those. Others include specific ideas on how to present and package the company. The author discusses the issue of pricing and payment extensively. I highly recommend this book for anyone contemplating issues of pricing their products and interacting with customers. It's honestly not as evil as it sounds. And even if the very idea sounds terrible, consider the book anyway. As Aristotle said, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

prateekdayal 16y ago

Yes .. we experimented a bit with our pricing too. Raised it from USD 25.95 to USD 49.95 with virtually no impact on conversions. Thanks to Eric Ries for suggesting this on a call where we discussed Muziboo with him. He asked us if we had ever raised our prices and when we said no, he recommended that we double them and see the results :)

axod 16y ago

FWIW, you don't have to charge users. Ad supported/affiliate marketing is a pretty viable business model and will often fit better than trying to charge end users.

keiferski 16y ago
Rather than downvote you, I'll disagree in a reply. Ads are an extremely unreliable business model. If you want to be an entrepreneur, run a business. If you want to run a business, sell stuff. Don't fall into the trap of "oh, I'll just tack some ads on later and we'll be fine."
- axod 16y ago
  > "Ads are an extremely unreliable business model." How much money do you make from advertising revenue that allows you to quantify specifically how reliable it is? I'd question if you have enough data at your disposal to make a statistically valid assessment. You can't disagree with data, and it's only unreliable if you don't know what you're doing.
  - lyudmil 16y ago
    How about the fact that most successful businesses that have ever existed have charged for their products? Why is this data that can safely be ignored? It's the most proven business model out there. Furthermore, it takes time to get good at anything. As you implied, making money from advertising is a skill, so how long does it take for you to get good enough at it to support yourself? Charging for things is simply more conservative. It's for people who don't want to risk going under while learning how to advertise.
    - axod 16y ago
      There's pretty substantial industries that are built on advertising revenue - free papers, television, and the internet. Over the last 15 years countless websites have proven you can make substantial amounts of money from advertising income. It's a proven business model. Getting paid subscribers isn't trivial either. You need to learn as you go with either approach.
      - lyudmil 16y ago
        Advertising was, for the most part, invented for traditional media (papers, radio, television). In many ways traditional media and the marketing industry are the same thing, so bringing that up as an example of a proven business model doesn't really say much. As far as the Internet, how many publicly traded Internet companies actually make their profits primarily from advertising? Okay, all the search engines obviously, but who else? I just don't think you can say that ad-revenue-based models are as proven of a business model as just selling things.
wensing 16y ago
Stormpulse has around 5 million uniques per year and the ad model still isn't viable without destroying the user experience. In other words, you need more traffic than most people can fathom.
- axod 16y ago
  It's not the amount of traffic, it's the fit between your users and the advertising, how targeted they are, intent, etc etc. Also it totally depends on the service/product. For stormpulse I don't think advertising supported is probably the right idea unless it's made more mainstream. For example I'd start a "enter your email to get local weather reports free". Build up a massive email list, then start including promotional adverts at the top/bottom of each mailing. You'd be sending out a large amount of mails, to a large amount of people... I think it could generate a good revenue. It's not as simple as slapping up some ads and going home. This is the mistake I think most people make.
  - wensing 16y ago
    Let's boil it down to eCPM. What is your eCPM going to be? Multiple that by impressions and tell me how you're going to support N employees on that revenue.
    - axod 16y ago
      For what? What website? One of my websites generates $20 eCPM. Another generates $0.10 eCPM :/ What's your service going to cost? Multiply that by paying users and tell me how you're going to support N employees... I don't think arguing over this is useful - making money out of advertising isn't rocket science, but it does require learning and experience.
      - wensing 16y ago
        It's important for bootstrappers to understand the mass traffic that's needed for advertising to fuel growth. $20 eCPM means to have just a $200k/yr. business you need 10 million impressions per year. $0.10 eCPM means you need 2 billion.
charliepark 16y ago
The OP was making $60 per hour per user. Is there any advertiser in the world who'd pay $60 to "sponsor an hour" with them for access to a single member of the OP's userbase?
- axod 16y ago
  Making $60 per hour per user isn't scalable. You can only service one user at a time. So it's apples + oranges comparison there.
ahoyhere 16y ago
The metaphor I use with my startup students is this: PPC (even banner) advertising is like scrounging for scraps at the table of someone successful. AND, of course, if the ads work -- if the advertisers get their money worth -- then of course the ads are leading your users away from your app, which means of course a lower rate of returns. Ad-supported biz models are difficult to achieve, fickle, counter-productive and, frankly, more work than charging people.
- axod 16y ago
  That's a ridiculous metaphor which completely misunderstands advertising. Your metaphor would be more correct if you said it's like scrounging for scraps at the table of millions of successful people all at the same time. But you're not "scrounging for scraps". You're selling exposure, mindshare and traffic to advertisers willing to pay for it. You obviously haven't been successful with ad-supported.
  - ahoyhere 16y ago
    Nope, you're mistaken. I've made tens of thousands on ads... and hundreds of thousands on products. Products that cost money. It's easier to control, more rewarding intellectually (because your interests & customer interess are in sync), and much more profitable -- without counting on a stroke of luck. If people pay you a percentage of their cash flow, that's a mere scrap. Sell your own product and you get the lion's share.
    - axod 16y ago
      Well, take your numbers, and reverse them for me /shrug/
      - ahoyhere 16y ago
        That doesn't invalidate my metaphor. If an advertiser is willing to pay you $x then you can be guaranteed they're earning $x * 2 -- or more. If you had the product instead, and were the advertiser, you could be the one making a lot more money. Advertising expenditure is always a sliver of total expected revenue, except in two rare cases: when a company bets the farm on an ad campaign, and when the advertiser is a startup running on VC. Therefore, the amount of money the ad generates will almost always be more than it costs. That is indisputable. Ergo, making products is a better way to capture more money.

neovive 16y ago

I'm learning this the hard way. It's a great introduction to sales when you stop giving something away and actually charging money. You instinctively begin justifying costs based on features/benefits, value/ROI, etc. Then you start reading books on sales, only to realize you are already doing most of things they talk about :). It also changes the way you plan and prioritize your development objectives -- you begin approaching your project as a real business instead of just a website. When you are ready to begin your next project, you now have a wealth of business experience to bring to the table along with any development/domain knowledge.

unoti 16y ago
The ideas we're talking about here are discussed thoroughly in the surprisingly fascinating book "Winning through Intimidation." My ex-girlfriend was a touchy-feely people person, a trainer by trade. She often cited that book as being straight from the devil, the antithesis of everything she believed in with regard to motivating people. So I bought the book as a joke, to annoy her with its presence on my bookshelf. Then I started reading it one day, and it actually has a ton of really fantastic business and sales ideas that are not evil at all. The thesis of the book is that for your business to succeed, you need to project an image of success and confidence. The book goes through dozens of specific ways to do this, and asking for more money is one of those. Others include specific ideas on how to present and package the company. The author discusses the issue of pricing and payment extensively. I highly recommend this book for anyone contemplating issues of pricing their products and interacting with customers. It's honestly not as evil as it sounds. And even if the very idea sounds terrible, consider the book anyway. As Aristotle said, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."