6 ms·

> a judge issued a gag order and a data handoff request on a private citizen to Google without probable cause They weren't a US citizen they where Australian s

> a judge issued a gag order and a data handoff request on a private citizen to Google without probable cause They weren't a US citizen they where Australian so the judge didn't need probable cause. It is perfectly legal and that should make any foreigner question their relationship with America. Do we really want an ally that has proven them selves as totalitarian as China and is determined to spy on us?

asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
The constitution does not explicitly grant due process to non-citizens, but statutes and judicial rulings since have generally enforced that non-citizens have most of the same rights as citizens when it comes to criminal investigations. I don't think we know whether or not there was probable cause to believe a crime had been committed. We don't even know what sort of search order was granted. For example, maybe the account owner is not the subject of the investigation, but the account is believed to contain information that would be relevant nonetheless.
- koheripbal 7y ago
  This is a complex topic, and is especially unclear when the person is not on US soil, so saying "judicial rulings since have generally enforced..." is not really accurate.
magicalist 7y ago
> They weren't a US citizen they where Australian so the judge didn't need probable cause. This is not true, the warrant served would absolutely have to be signed under a finding of probable cause. I believe the GP is saying they don't believe the probable cause was valid, not that no probable cause was given.
jsight 7y ago
> Do we really want an ally that has proven them selves as totalitarian as China and is determined to spy on us? No, but who would that be and how is it related to your points about the US?
eloff 7y ago
As totalitarian as China? Come on. It's not even close. I'll assume you're exaggerating for effect, but please don't do that.
- dosy 7y ago
  It's the same it's just overt (China) vs covert (the West). That you don't see it is the point. combine that with anti China Western propaganda and it's no surprise that you can't assess accurately. Just look at the complete failure of the Australian intelligence community in their bulshit assessment of that fraudulent fake spy. The people who are supposed to be able to provide accurate assessments. Completely making fools of themselves. played by China. In front of the whole world. Just sad. Very sad. But they're not going to learn they're just going to get defensive stay in their arrogance and blame someone else rather than reflecting how they can improve.
- refurb 7y ago
  I don't think people understand how much hyperbole like this undermines their arguments. "I think this is horrible" [maybe I don't agree but it's a valid opinion] "The US is as totalitarian as China" [ok, this person doesn't know what they are talking about]
  - eloff 7y ago
    Exactly, and it really diminishes the plight of the billion plus people in China, the citizens of Hong Kong who were sold out by the UK, and the horrific situation forced upon the Uighurs.
Medicalidiot 7y ago
>Do we really want an ally that has proven them selves as totalitarian as China and is determined to spy on us? The US went through a judicial process and didn't just imprison or delete this person's account ( I know this isn't a US national), but this is a false equivalency to say that this process is even close to China when China currently has over a million prisoners in concentration camps.
- dilap 7y ago
  US has about 5 times as many people locked up, proportionally, as China.
  - GhettoMaestro 7y ago
    The people you mentioned in the US went through a judicial proceeding which resulted in their imprisonment. We can debate the merits (or lack therefore) of the laws broken which resulted in their imprisonment, but the point is there was a process and a review in place before said people were sent off to prison. Contrast that situation to China. China has over 1 million Uyghur Muslims in concentration camps for non-criminal, political reasons. Most (if not all) of the said Uyghur people imprisoned were given no judicial review, and have no access to legal counsel. God damn I hate the whataboutism on HN I see with regards to China - it is really rampant. It may shatter some folks' liberal sentiments but the US really is not the worst country on the block (planet), by a long-long margin.
  - BubRoss 7y ago
    I don't think having people in concentration camps getting their organs harvested is so similar that comparing numbers makes sense.
    - tharne 7y ago
      I'm amazed at just how little press coverage that is getting. Some public figure says something that's not sufficiently woke and it's on the front page of every news site in the country. China gets caught putting religious and ethnic minorities into camps and harvests their organs and most Americans haven't heard about it.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
CWuestefeld 7y ago
They weren't a US citizen they where Australian so the judge didn't need probable cause. Why do so many people think that human rights flow from US citizenship? That's not how the Constitution works. The 4th Amendment to the Constitution doesn't say anything about citizenship: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. The Bill of Rights is a set of limitations on the government, saying that the government is not allowed to do these things. It doesn't say anything about who they might hypothetically be doing them to, just that they cannot do it. So regardless of your citizenship, the government can't prevent you from practicing your religion, can't throw you in jail without a trial, and they can't search you without a warrant. This applies to any actions the US government takes, regardless of who they're directed against and where.
- xxpor 7y ago
  You've clearly never read most OLC memos. Especially ones used to justify killing random Iraqis.
  - CWuestefeld 7y ago
    This touches on the Guantanamo Bay thing, too, where people are being held without trial. The gov't position is that they're enemy combatants, and thus covered by the rules of war. I don't buy that, but there you go. It just goes to show that the people (whoever they might be) need to be continually vigilant - in a sense, government is always the adversary.
- refurb 7y ago
  That's clearly untrue. Otherwise we wouldn't have the CIA as an organization to spy on foreigners. It is true you don't need to be a US citizen to have protection. However, you do need to be under the jurisdiction of the US (on US soil). Otherwise, the US Constitutional rights don't apply to you.

asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago

The constitution does not explicitly grant due process to non-citizens, but statutes and judicial rulings since have generally enforced that non-citizens have most of the same rights as citizens when it comes to criminal investigations. I don't think we know whether or not there was probable cause to believe a crime had been committed. We don't even know what sort of search order was granted. For example, maybe the account owner is not the subject of the investigation, but the account is believed to contain information that would be relevant nonetheless.

koheripbal 7y ago
This is a complex topic, and is especially unclear when the person is not on US soil, so saying "judicial rulings since have generally enforced..." is not really accurate.

magicalist 7y ago

> They weren't a US citizen they where Australian so the judge didn't need probable cause. This is not true, the warrant served would absolutely have to be signed under a finding of probable cause. I believe the GP is saying they don't believe the probable cause was valid, not that no probable cause was given.

jsight 7y ago

> Do we really want an ally that has proven them selves as totalitarian as China and is determined to spy on us? No, but who would that be and how is it related to your points about the US?

eloff 7y ago

As totalitarian as China? Come on. It's not even close. I'll assume you're exaggerating for effect, but please don't do that.

dosy 7y ago
It's the same it's just overt (China) vs covert (the West). That you don't see it is the point. combine that with anti China Western propaganda and it's no surprise that you can't assess accurately. Just look at the complete failure of the Australian intelligence community in their bulshit assessment of that fraudulent fake spy. The people who are supposed to be able to provide accurate assessments. Completely making fools of themselves. played by China. In front of the whole world. Just sad. Very sad. But they're not going to learn they're just going to get defensive stay in their arrogance and blame someone else rather than reflecting how they can improve.
refurb 7y ago
I don't think people understand how much hyperbole like this undermines their arguments. "I think this is horrible" [maybe I don't agree but it's a valid opinion] "The US is as totalitarian as China" [ok, this person doesn't know what they are talking about]
- eloff 7y ago
  Exactly, and it really diminishes the plight of the billion plus people in China, the citizens of Hong Kong who were sold out by the UK, and the horrific situation forced upon the Uighurs.

Medicalidiot 7y ago

>Do we really want an ally that has proven them selves as totalitarian as China and is determined to spy on us? The US went through a judicial process and didn't just imprison or delete this person's account ( I know this isn't a US national), but this is a false equivalency to say that this process is even close to China when China currently has over a million prisoners in concentration camps.

dilap 7y ago
US has about 5 times as many people locked up, proportionally, as China.
- GhettoMaestro 7y ago
  The people you mentioned in the US went through a judicial proceeding which resulted in their imprisonment. We can debate the merits (or lack therefore) of the laws broken which resulted in their imprisonment, but the point is there was a process and a review in place before said people were sent off to prison. Contrast that situation to China. China has over 1 million Uyghur Muslims in concentration camps for non-criminal, political reasons. Most (if not all) of the said Uyghur people imprisoned were given no judicial review, and have no access to legal counsel. God damn I hate the whataboutism on HN I see with regards to China - it is really rampant. It may shatter some folks' liberal sentiments but the US really is not the worst country on the block (planet), by a long-long margin.
- BubRoss 7y ago
  I don't think having people in concentration camps getting their organs harvested is so similar that comparing numbers makes sense.
  - tharne 7y ago
    I'm amazed at just how little press coverage that is getting. Some public figure says something that's not sufficiently woke and it's on the front page of every news site in the country. China gets caught putting religious and ethnic minorities into camps and harvests their organs and most Americans haven't heard about it.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

CWuestefeld 7y ago

They weren't a US citizen they where Australian so the judge didn't need probable cause. Why do so many people think that human rights flow from US citizenship? That's not how the Constitution works. The 4th Amendment to the Constitution doesn't say anything about citizenship: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. The Bill of Rights is a set of limitations on the government, saying that the government is not allowed to do these things. It doesn't say anything about who they might hypothetically be doing them to, just that they cannot do it. So regardless of your citizenship, the government can't prevent you from practicing your religion, can't throw you in jail without a trial, and they can't search you without a warrant. This applies to any actions the US government takes, regardless of who they're directed against and where.

xxpor 7y ago
You've clearly never read most OLC memos. Especially ones used to justify killing random Iraqis.
- CWuestefeld 7y ago
  This touches on the Guantanamo Bay thing, too, where people are being held without trial. The gov't position is that they're enemy combatants, and thus covered by the rules of war. I don't buy that, but there you go. It just goes to show that the people (whoever they might be) need to be continually vigilant - in a sense, government is always the adversary.
refurb 7y ago
That's clearly untrue. Otherwise we wouldn't have the CIA as an organization to spy on foreigners. It is true you don't need to be a US citizen to have protection. However, you do need to be under the jurisdiction of the US (on US soil). Otherwise, the US Constitutional rights don't apply to you.