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Just because the west also can't necessarily be trusted not to try to sneak exploits into sponsored projects (or through other means, such as a snail mail MITM)

Just because the west also can't necessarily be trusted not to try to sneak exploits into sponsored projects (or through other means, such as a snail mail MITM) doesn't mean we shouldn't ask the question of other countries as well. Whataboutism is never the correct answer to a valid concern (in general. I'm not sure if there's much to worry about in this specific case or not).

coldtea 7y ago
>Whataboutism is never the correct answer to a valid concern I'd say it is. I puts the concern in perspective, and stops people from using it to paint the "enemy" (anybody that's not them/their government) as particularly evil for doing the same thing the other side does.
- kbenson 7y ago
  That doesn't make it the answer though, just something else that might be beneficial to mention. As an answer it obscures whether the original question had merit and leaves it unanswered. As something that's included alongside an answer it is superior to an answer alone and to itself alone. I agree whataboutism can be useful in causing people to reassess their perspective on a topic, but when used haphazardly it can obscure more than clarify (and has been used this way extensively in the past for this purpose).
atoav 7y ago
I understand your criticism of whataboutism. I dislike whataboutism myself. However the issue here is that I wish that the nations I am part of would conduct themselves in a manner that gives them the moral authority to speak up on issues of freedom and democracy. And this — quite frankly — currently isn’t the case. It isn’t the case because the post 9-11 paranoia lead elements of our society to feel so threatened, they threw defining rights and freedoms overboard (and this is the favourable reading of events). You cannot topple governments, install dictators, kidnap and torture people and keep them locked up without trial for years, cover up war crimes, go after those who blow the whistle on said war crimes, spy on your allies and on your own people and still expect other nations to see you as a beacon of freedom and democracy. A lot of the behaviour of the US is only justified by: “Yeah but we are the good ones” and this is an argument my one Nazi Grandfather also used: “Sure there were bad things, but they built the streets and everybody had a job.” A free society isn’t measured by how it treats its wealthiest and most powerful members — it is measured by how it treats its enemies. Hard to demand someone to respect human rights, if you don’t give a damn about it yourself, when it just hits the people you dislike. That beeing said, China is still worse. But this is not a contest and I like to change the nations I live in first.

coldtea 7y ago

>Whataboutism is never the correct answer to a valid concern I'd say it is. I puts the concern in perspective, and stops people from using it to paint the "enemy" (anybody that's not them/their government) as particularly evil for doing the same thing the other side does.

kbenson 7y ago
That doesn't make it the answer though, just something else that might be beneficial to mention. As an answer it obscures whether the original question had merit and leaves it unanswered. As something that's included alongside an answer it is superior to an answer alone and to itself alone. I agree whataboutism can be useful in causing people to reassess their perspective on a topic, but when used haphazardly it can obscure more than clarify (and has been used this way extensively in the past for this purpose).

atoav 7y ago

I understand your criticism of whataboutism. I dislike whataboutism myself. However the issue here is that I wish that the nations I am part of would conduct themselves in a manner that gives them the moral authority to speak up on issues of freedom and democracy. And this — quite frankly — currently isn’t the case. It isn’t the case because the post 9-11 paranoia lead elements of our society to feel so threatened, they threw defining rights and freedoms overboard (and this is the favourable reading of events). You cannot topple governments, install dictators, kidnap and torture people and keep them locked up without trial for years, cover up war crimes, go after those who blow the whistle on said war crimes, spy on your allies and on your own people and still expect other nations to see you as a beacon of freedom and democracy. A lot of the behaviour of the US is only justified by: “Yeah but we are the good ones” and this is an argument my one Nazi Grandfather also used: “Sure there were bad things, but they built the streets and everybody had a job.” A free society isn’t measured by how it treats its wealthiest and most powerful members — it is measured by how it treats its enemies. Hard to demand someone to respect human rights, if you don’t give a damn about it yourself, when it just hits the people you dislike. That beeing said, China is still worse. But this is not a contest and I like to change the nations I live in first.