4 ms·

> For example recursion, pointers, closures, and class hierarchies. > My suspicion is that one or more of these concepts is more of a barrier for women than me

by danans 7y ago

> For example recursion, pointers, closures, and class hierarchies. > My suspicion is that one or more of these concepts is more of a barrier for women than men. Seems like quite a stretch, given that those are all concepts created by mathematics, which women have long excelled in - after all, women were the original "computers" before we had machines to automate calculations. Add to that that the hard sciences like chemistry are full of women, and many of the concepts they involve dwarf the complexity of concepts like classes and pointers. What changed for women between the time of early programming languages and C++/Java wasn't pointers and classes, but rather the culture of tech itself moved from academia to business, and big business had a heavy male bias.

hackinthebochs 7y ago
> given that those are all concepts created by mathematics, which women have long excelled in - after all, women were the original "computers" before we had machines to automate calculations. Doing rote arithmetic is nothing like doing mathematics. Doing manual calculations is nothing like being a programmer. The activities have zero resemblance. Also, advanced mathematics degrees (i.e. Masters and above) have the same gender parity as computer science. Undergrad mathematics degrees has a more balanced gender parity, but this is explained by a large proportion of those women going on to become teachers.
- danans 7y ago
  > Doing rote arithmetic is nothing like doing mathematics. Doing manual calculations is nothing like being a programmer. The activities have zero resemblance. Understanding the function of pointers, classes, and most programming itself are also nothing like advanced mathematics. Even ML is largely stats and calculus in its technical aspects, not cutting edge math. There is zero at all evidence to suggest that women are less capable of understanding the concepts behind programming.
  - hackinthebochs 7y ago
    >most programming itself are also nothing like advanced mathematics. This is certainly true. But they do overlap in requiring a heavy amount of abstract reasoning. While "abstract reasoning" is a bit vague, one proxy for this is spatial reasoning which shows strong gender disparities and has implications for science and math ability. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-44385-0_10 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-44385-0_...
    - danans 7y ago
      > While "abstract reasoning" is a bit vague, It's extremely vague, and therefore shouldn't be used to justify any conclusions about an entire population. > one proxy for this is spatial reasoning which shows strong gender disparities and has implications for science and math ability. Another proxy for it is symbolic reasoning, which is arguably even more closely related to programming (most programming is symbolic manipulation - arising from discrete mathematics). Programming languages themselves were inspired by the study of the structure of natural human languages. Since women's language skills are often stronger than men's, I might argue that women are better suited to programming than men ... but I wouldn't argue that because that would be using the same fallacious reasoning that is behind the argument you used. In the real world, most programming and software engineering tasks use a mix of quantitative, spatial, symbolic, analytical, and social reasoning skills. Above all, it takes a structured approach to problem solving, which can be achieved through many forms of reasoning.
      - hackinthebochs 7y ago
        There's nothing fallacious about spatial reasoning being stronger in males on average, and math (and presumably programming) being heavy on utilizing spatial reasoning. It's certainly an open question how much spatial reasoning is relevant, but its not irrelevant and so such data has explanatory power. Of course one doesn't have to be in the top 1% of spatial reasoning to be a capable software developer, but no one is making such a claim. We're looking for factors that help explain women's apparent disinterest in becoming software developers. But its a given that people are drawn to things they're good at and disinclined towards things they struggle with. And so the gender disparities in spatial reasoning is a relevant data point in this discussion.
- btilly 7y ago
  Also, advanced mathematics degrees (i.e. Masters and above) have the same gender parity as computer science. Not so fast. See https://www.aps.org/programs/education/statistics/fraction-phd.cfm https://www.aps.org/programs/education/statistics/fraction-p... to verify that the percentage is a bit under 30% for women in mathematics and around 20% for women in computer science. Also note that the ratios graduating with a BSc and a PhD are very different. There are a lot of challenges around the PhD program that have kept women out. (Challenges like, "long time spent poor during prime child bearing years".)
  - hackinthebochs 7y ago
    Thanks for the correction, I was too lazy to search for a source to verify my recollection of the numbers.

by danans 7y ago

hackinthebochs 7y ago

> given that those are all concepts created by mathematics, which women have long excelled in - after all, women were the original "computers" before we had machines to automate calculations. Doing rote arithmetic is nothing like doing mathematics. Doing manual calculations is nothing like being a programmer. The activities have zero resemblance. Also, advanced mathematics degrees (i.e. Masters and above) have the same gender parity as computer science. Undergrad mathematics degrees has a more balanced gender parity, but this is explained by a large proportion of those women going on to become teachers.

danans 7y ago
> Doing rote arithmetic is nothing like doing mathematics. Doing manual calculations is nothing like being a programmer. The activities have zero resemblance. Understanding the function of pointers, classes, and most programming itself are also nothing like advanced mathematics. Even ML is largely stats and calculus in its technical aspects, not cutting edge math. There is zero at all evidence to suggest that women are less capable of understanding the concepts behind programming.
- hackinthebochs 7y ago
  >most programming itself are also nothing like advanced mathematics. This is certainly true. But they do overlap in requiring a heavy amount of abstract reasoning. While "abstract reasoning" is a bit vague, one proxy for this is spatial reasoning which shows strong gender disparities and has implications for science and math ability. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-44385-0_10 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-44385-0_...
  - danans 7y ago
    > While "abstract reasoning" is a bit vague, It's extremely vague, and therefore shouldn't be used to justify any conclusions about an entire population. > one proxy for this is spatial reasoning which shows strong gender disparities and has implications for science and math ability. Another proxy for it is symbolic reasoning, which is arguably even more closely related to programming (most programming is symbolic manipulation - arising from discrete mathematics). Programming languages themselves were inspired by the study of the structure of natural human languages. Since women's language skills are often stronger than men's, I might argue that women are better suited to programming than men ... but I wouldn't argue that because that would be using the same fallacious reasoning that is behind the argument you used. In the real world, most programming and software engineering tasks use a mix of quantitative, spatial, symbolic, analytical, and social reasoning skills. Above all, it takes a structured approach to problem solving, which can be achieved through many forms of reasoning.
    - hackinthebochs 7y ago
      There's nothing fallacious about spatial reasoning being stronger in males on average, and math (and presumably programming) being heavy on utilizing spatial reasoning. It's certainly an open question how much spatial reasoning is relevant, but its not irrelevant and so such data has explanatory power. Of course one doesn't have to be in the top 1% of spatial reasoning to be a capable software developer, but no one is making such a claim. We're looking for factors that help explain women's apparent disinterest in becoming software developers. But its a given that people are drawn to things they're good at and disinclined towards things they struggle with. And so the gender disparities in spatial reasoning is a relevant data point in this discussion.
btilly 7y ago
Also, advanced mathematics degrees (i.e. Masters and above) have the same gender parity as computer science. Not so fast. See https://www.aps.org/programs/education/statistics/fraction-phd.cfm https://www.aps.org/programs/education/statistics/fraction-p... to verify that the percentage is a bit under 30% for women in mathematics and around 20% for women in computer science. Also note that the ratios graduating with a BSc and a PhD are very different. There are a lot of challenges around the PhD program that have kept women out. (Challenges like, "long time spent poor during prime child bearing years".)
- hackinthebochs 7y ago
  Thanks for the correction, I was too lazy to search for a source to verify my recollection of the numbers.