5 ms·

Also websites can opt-out of having their content indexed. How can Google opt-out of having its search index copied by Microsoft? The funniest argument in thi

by axod 16y ago

Also websites can opt-out of having their content indexed. How can Google opt-out of having its search index copied by Microsoft? The funniest argument in this has been "Bing hasn't got the data, Google has an unfair advantage etc" as if Microsoft didn't exist before Google. Microsoft have had years headstart to get their online division doing something worthwhile, but they still can't get it right.

kevin_morrill 16y ago
Put up a terms of use or force users to accept a license agreement. They do no such thing today. So I think you'd have a hard time saying Microsoft has done anything legally wrong here.
- axod 16y ago
  They've done as much legally wrong as bundling IE with windows. It's most certainly morally wrong. I want to see a project started to r/e the bing toolbar, and create something to send rubbish data back to bing to screw up their search index. That'd be awesome to see.
- ericd 16y ago
  We're discussing morality, not legality. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right.
- jamesgeck0 16y ago
  Google already has terms of service. You agree to them by using Google. http://www.google.com/accounts/ http://www.google.com/accounts/ 5.3 You agree not to access (or attempt to access) any of the Services by any means other than through the interface that is provided by Google, unless you have been specifically allowed to do so in a separate agreement with Google. You specifically agree not to access (or attempt to access) any of the Services through any automated means (including use of scripts or web crawlers) and shall ensure that you comply with the instructions set out in any robots.txt file present on the Services.
  - HardyLeung 16y ago
    In this case I don't think Microsoft violates Google's TOS because it is not directly consuming the "service" provided by Google, but rather peeking at what the user has done (and by installing the toolbar the user has already agreed to let Bing do it).
    - MarkMc 16y ago
      Imagine the Google terms of service said, 'Users must not share any information we provide with anyone else'. Does that mean that use of the Microsoft toolbar would violate these terms and Google could sue Microsoft to stop them using the 'clickstream' data?
mooism2 16y ago
<meta name=robots content="noindex,nofollow">?
- axod 16y ago
  I'm pretty sure microsoft doesn't care... They're capturing what users click on, which doesn't include any information about the wishes of the website owner.
  - mooism2 16y ago
    Given the case of misspellings, Bing appear to associate what the user types into a text box with the link they subsequently follow. I think this counts as extracting information from the Google results page. <meta name=robots> is designed to prevent search engines automatically extracting information from web pages. By involving a human in the process, Bing are (presumably) avoiding this rule. Is this a good thing? I accept that Bing don't access the page content itself, so wouldn't be able to see the <meta> tag if it was there.
jonburs 16y ago
No one has shown any evidence that Microsoft has directly copied Google's search index, or even violated the directives in google.com's robots.txt file. What Microsoft apparently has done is to infer relationships from Gooogle SRPs to various sites by way of information gathered through the Bing toolbar (and possibly other documented and user opt-in channels w/in IE). Using toolbar collected signals is well-established practice -- that's how Google obtains information regarding site performance.
- johnjhayes 16y ago
  The only thing I haven't seen is this. Ok, using the clickstream data is an established practice, but does Google use clickstream data from users making searches on OTHER search engines, or just their own? This is the crux for me, Bing is using data from Google, does Google use data from Bing or only themselves? Even if all true, I don't see it as unethical business practice. Definitely a marketing black eye, but not much else.
  - spot 16y ago
    The information flows one way, from Google to Bing. Google is careful not to do this.

by axod 16y ago

kevin_morrill 16y ago

Put up a terms of use or force users to accept a license agreement. They do no such thing today. So I think you'd have a hard time saying Microsoft has done anything legally wrong here.

axod 16y ago
They've done as much legally wrong as bundling IE with windows. It's most certainly morally wrong. I want to see a project started to r/e the bing toolbar, and create something to send rubbish data back to bing to screw up their search index. That'd be awesome to see.
ericd 16y ago
We're discussing morality, not legality. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right.
jamesgeck0 16y ago
Google already has terms of service. You agree to them by using Google. http://www.google.com/accounts/ http://www.google.com/accounts/ 5.3 You agree not to access (or attempt to access) any of the Services by any means other than through the interface that is provided by Google, unless you have been specifically allowed to do so in a separate agreement with Google. You specifically agree not to access (or attempt to access) any of the Services through any automated means (including use of scripts or web crawlers) and shall ensure that you comply with the instructions set out in any robots.txt file present on the Services.
- HardyLeung 16y ago
  In this case I don't think Microsoft violates Google's TOS because it is not directly consuming the "service" provided by Google, but rather peeking at what the user has done (and by installing the toolbar the user has already agreed to let Bing do it).
  - MarkMc 16y ago
    Imagine the Google terms of service said, 'Users must not share any information we provide with anyone else'. Does that mean that use of the Microsoft toolbar would violate these terms and Google could sue Microsoft to stop them using the 'clickstream' data?

mooism2 16y ago

axod 16y ago
I'm pretty sure microsoft doesn't care... They're capturing what users click on, which doesn't include any information about the wishes of the website owner.
- mooism2 16y ago
  Given the case of misspellings, Bing appear to associate what the user types into a text box with the link they subsequently follow. I think this counts as extracting information from the Google results page. <meta name=robots> is designed to prevent search engines automatically extracting information from web pages. By involving a human in the process, Bing are (presumably) avoiding this rule. Is this a good thing? I accept that Bing don't access the page content itself, so wouldn't be able to see the <meta> tag if it was there.

jonburs 16y ago

No one has shown any evidence that Microsoft has directly copied Google's search index, or even violated the directives in google.com's robots.txt file. What Microsoft apparently has done is to infer relationships from Gooogle SRPs to various sites by way of information gathered through the Bing toolbar (and possibly other documented and user opt-in channels w/in IE). Using toolbar collected signals is well-established practice -- that's how Google obtains information regarding site performance.

johnjhayes 16y ago
The only thing I haven't seen is this. Ok, using the clickstream data is an established practice, but does Google use clickstream data from users making searches on OTHER search engines, or just their own? This is the crux for me, Bing is using data from Google, does Google use data from Bing or only themselves? Even if all true, I don't see it as unethical business practice. Definitely a marketing black eye, but not much else.
- spot 16y ago
  The information flows one way, from Google to Bing. Google is careful not to do this.