5 ms·

at my workplace we try very hard to hire women programmers and we are at about 10% - 15% which is still quite low but better than other companies around us. At

at my workplace we try very hard to hire women programmers and we are at about 10% - 15% which is still quite low but better than other companies around us. At the same time I noticed that the majority of engineering managers, product owners and agile coaches in our company are women. Some of these women were programmers at some point in their career. I'm not deducing anything from this (especially since it’s a single datapoint) but it sure is interesting.

rofo1 7y ago
> at my workplace we try very hard to hire women programmers and we are at about 10% - 15% which is still quite low but better than other companies around us. Are you actually counting how many of you are woman and conclude based on that, that you are better off than other companies? It's not low, or high, or medium. It just is. As long as you are not rejecting perfectly capable women/females (just because they are so), you are not doing anything wrong and you are not worse off.
- jdmoreira 7y ago
  True. But I also believe that a diverse workplace is a better workplace because of a combination of different perspectives. I also believe women are underrepresented in programming, the main consequence being the infantile machismo we all know exists.
JoeAltmaier 7y ago
My suspicion is that the pipeline has fewer women, partly because they leave Engineering so quickly. Thus there are hardly any experienced women in the pipeline. Since an Engineer may change jobs half a dozen times over a career, but women generally change once (to non-Engineering job) we have a cumulative effect.
- abjKT26nO8 7y ago
  > Since an Engineer may change jobs half a dozen times over a career, but women generally change once (to non-Engineering job) we have a cumulative effect. I don't understand this reasoning. Are you saying that women generally have one engineering job and then they change to a non-engineering one? If not, where is the number difference coming from? Off-topic: why do you capitalize "engineering"?
  - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
    Even if there were equal numbers of women and men starting out in engineering, but women never 'recycle', then the flows would be different. That's all. I capitalize Engineer as an occupation, like Doctor Smith. Yeah, probably don't want to capitalize it as an adjective.
    - wnoise 7y ago
      Doctor is capitalized there as a title, not as a profession.
petsormeat 7y ago
>At the same time I noticed that the majority of engineering managers, product owners and agile coaches in our company are women. Some of these women were programmers at some point in their career. Many women get nudged/pushed into middle management instead of promoted to technical leads or directorships. It's often a way for companies to claim they "promote" women, while forcing them into roles that are vulnerable to layoffs.
- sukilot 7y ago
  That's rather tin-foil-hatty. Directors and above are a rounding error in employment. The conventional wisdom is that the good jobs are management, the only way to get pay rises and survive ageism-based layoff. This is the first I've heard someone claim that getting promoted to management is an attack.

rofo1 7y ago

> at my workplace we try very hard to hire women programmers and we are at about 10% - 15% which is still quite low but better than other companies around us. Are you actually counting how many of you are woman and conclude based on that, that you are better off than other companies? It's not low, or high, or medium. It just is. As long as you are not rejecting perfectly capable women/females (just because they are so), you are not doing anything wrong and you are not worse off.

jdmoreira 7y ago
True. But I also believe that a diverse workplace is a better workplace because of a combination of different perspectives. I also believe women are underrepresented in programming, the main consequence being the infantile machismo we all know exists.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago

My suspicion is that the pipeline has fewer women, partly because they leave Engineering so quickly. Thus there are hardly any experienced women in the pipeline. Since an Engineer may change jobs half a dozen times over a career, but women generally change once (to non-Engineering job) we have a cumulative effect.

abjKT26nO8 7y ago
> Since an Engineer may change jobs half a dozen times over a career, but women generally change once (to non-Engineering job) we have a cumulative effect. I don't understand this reasoning. Are you saying that women generally have one engineering job and then they change to a non-engineering one? If not, where is the number difference coming from? Off-topic: why do you capitalize "engineering"?
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  Even if there were equal numbers of women and men starting out in engineering, but women never 'recycle', then the flows would be different. That's all. I capitalize Engineer as an occupation, like Doctor Smith. Yeah, probably don't want to capitalize it as an adjective.
  - wnoise 7y ago
    Doctor is capitalized there as a title, not as a profession.

petsormeat 7y ago

>At the same time I noticed that the majority of engineering managers, product owners and agile coaches in our company are women. Some of these women were programmers at some point in their career. Many women get nudged/pushed into middle management instead of promoted to technical leads or directorships. It's often a way for companies to claim they "promote" women, while forcing them into roles that are vulnerable to layoffs.

sukilot 7y ago
That's rather tin-foil-hatty. Directors and above are a rounding error in employment. The conventional wisdom is that the good jobs are management, the only way to get pay rises and survive ageism-based layoff. This is the first I've heard someone claim that getting promoted to management is an attack.