4 ms·

one of the next interplanetary or Interstellar Probe should carry a copy of the sci-hub torrent in some kind of permanent storage

saalweachter 7y ago
Do we have anything rated for a few millennia of interstellar radiation besides etched gold plates?
- bangonkeyboard 7y ago
  Glass: https://news.microsoft.com/innovation-stories/ignite-project-silica-superman/ https://news.microsoft.com/innovation-stories/ignite-project..., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5D_optical_data_storage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5D_optical_data_storage
- legatus 7y ago
  Microsoft's project Silica [0] may hopefully provide really long term, large capacity archive grade storage on earth. I wonder what effects interstellar radiation has on them. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/4/20942040/microsoft-project-silica-glass-storage-warner-bros-features-details https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/4/20942040/microsoft-projec...
  - kortex 7y ago
    Glass is pretty inert, full stop. It would depend on the voxel size but I imagine as long as you have more than a few hundered atoms per voxel/bit you will have survivability on the order of millenia, even in high radiation environments. Someone would have to do the nuclear cross section calculations to get a real bit error rate but glass is very tough stuff.
- buboard 7y ago
  whats wrong with etched gold disks?
  - saalweachter 7y ago
    I wonder if that's actually feasible for this application. Microdots managed about 32MiB / square centimeter (from the "you could fit the Bible 50 times in a square inch") measure. That's a completely arbitrary density to achieve, since it was photographs which were enlarged and shrunk, and you could hypothetically use any encoding for your gold etchings, and it also leaves out the question of "how fine can you etch gold plates while still having the engraving be 'robust'". But in any case, that gives you a target area of ~325 square meters for a 100TiB archive. That's a lot, but not like a crazy obviously impossible number like a million square km or something.
    - jandrese 7y ago
      Assuming you can cut the etching down to 1m squares and stack them on top of one another that should be no problem at all. Assuming each layer is 1.2mm thick (same as a CD) that's a volume of 1m x 1m x .390m, it would fit easily in a payload fairing of any rocket that can get it into orbit.
      - saalweachter 7y ago
        The volume isn't a real problem, but nearly half a cubic meter of gold should also have a mass of ~7500 kilograms. You're also looking at a cost of ~$350 million, US. (Which isn't necessarily impossible, but still a lot, especially for an interstellar probe.)
        jandrese 7y ago
        7.5 metric tons is well within the weight limit for a Falcon 9, so add about $57m for the launch costs for a total project cost of probably around $500m. That puts it in the realm of the Voyager probes for total cost.
        saalweachter 7y ago
        7.5 metric tons is also over ten times the mass of each Voyager probe.
- Hitton 7y ago
  I think millipede memory[0] could have managed that, too bad the technology got shelved. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millipede_memory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millipede_memory
Someone1234 7y ago
Storing that amount of information in a way that an unknown alien species would be able to read (even assuming technical expertise greater than our own) is a huge problem. Keep in mind that they don't know our written or computational language and there's nothing about our technology that is inherently self-explaining/obvious. Even the assumption that they'd use binary computers (rather than trinary, or other technology not based around electrical voltages) is open to debate.
- buboard 7y ago
  > an unknown alien species Not necessarily for aliens ... but why not keep a backup in a safe place outside the dangers of earthlings ? OTOH, I think a sufficiently advanced alien intelligence will be able to decipher the information structures we use regardless of differences in technology. It's possible though there will be missing links in that archive, which will need to be supplemented with a primary secondary and high school curriculim.
  - caleb-allen 7y ago
    What about a satellite backup in orbit around earth? Maybe an elliptical orbit, coming around a few times a year or something
    - 0xdeadbeefbabe 7y ago
      What format? I'm eager to know the solution to this non-problem.
      - buboard 7y ago
        pdf of course!
- caleb-allen 7y ago
  /Godel, Escher, Bach/ has an interesting thought experiment about exactly this. If one were to receive an object, how would it be indicated that there is a message embedded in there? Given that a intelligence could recognize that there was a message embedded, could it eventually be deciphered?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
walrus01 7y ago
there is no need to put a data storage archive on something shot out into interstellar space. geostationary telecommunications satellites are at a sufficiently high enough orbit that they will likely outlast human civilization. We could destroy ourselves with nuclear war, regress to a stone age level of technology, rediscover spaceflight and go find them long before the orbits of any of them decay.
- buboard 7y ago
  too close to the warzone to survive
  - walrus01 7y ago
    okay, high Mars orbit. Quite a lot less delta-v requirement for some theoretical several thousand kilogram chunk of long-lifespan data storage, and easier to discover and retrieve, than achieving solar escape velocity (look at the delta-v budget for the new horizons probe vs. its total size and weight, for instance).
    - zaarn 7y ago
      I'd probably put a signaling system on it. Some large RTG using elements with a long half life and extremely redundant systems that send a weak signal towards earth, just over the background noise. Some regular signal ("DATA" as a morse code) that repeats from an unknown object orbiting mars? I'd bet that any civilization would be flying there ASAP to see what it is about. The crux is really making a simple radio transmitter that can survive that long but the parameters are very weak (ie, the frequency is allowed to shift so long as it remains somewhat in a region that can be received on earth's surface, it needs a very long last power source but doesn't need a lot of power, unidirectional transmission is fine as long as it arrives).
claudiawerner 7y ago
This is an interesting idea because there's a lot of radical political and philosophical publications on there. Brill's Historical Materialsim book series is on there almost in its entirety.

saalweachter 7y ago

Do we have anything rated for a few millennia of interstellar radiation besides etched gold plates?

bangonkeyboard 7y ago
Glass: https://news.microsoft.com/innovation-stories/ignite-project-silica-superman/ https://news.microsoft.com/innovation-stories/ignite-project..., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5D_optical_data_storage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5D_optical_data_storage
legatus 7y ago
Microsoft's project Silica [0] may hopefully provide really long term, large capacity archive grade storage on earth. I wonder what effects interstellar radiation has on them. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/4/20942040/microsoft-project-silica-glass-storage-warner-bros-features-details https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/4/20942040/microsoft-projec...
- kortex 7y ago
  Glass is pretty inert, full stop. It would depend on the voxel size but I imagine as long as you have more than a few hundered atoms per voxel/bit you will have survivability on the order of millenia, even in high radiation environments. Someone would have to do the nuclear cross section calculations to get a real bit error rate but glass is very tough stuff.
buboard 7y ago
whats wrong with etched gold disks?
- saalweachter 7y ago
  I wonder if that's actually feasible for this application. Microdots managed about 32MiB / square centimeter (from the "you could fit the Bible 50 times in a square inch") measure. That's a completely arbitrary density to achieve, since it was photographs which were enlarged and shrunk, and you could hypothetically use any encoding for your gold etchings, and it also leaves out the question of "how fine can you etch gold plates while still having the engraving be 'robust'". But in any case, that gives you a target area of ~325 square meters for a 100TiB archive. That's a lot, but not like a crazy obviously impossible number like a million square km or something.
  - jandrese 7y ago
    Assuming you can cut the etching down to 1m squares and stack them on top of one another that should be no problem at all. Assuming each layer is 1.2mm thick (same as a CD) that's a volume of 1m x 1m x .390m, it would fit easily in a payload fairing of any rocket that can get it into orbit.
    - saalweachter 7y ago
      The volume isn't a real problem, but nearly half a cubic meter of gold should also have a mass of ~7500 kilograms. You're also looking at a cost of ~$350 million, US. (Which isn't necessarily impossible, but still a lot, especially for an interstellar probe.)
      - jandrese 7y ago
        7.5 metric tons is well within the weight limit for a Falcon 9, so add about $57m for the launch costs for a total project cost of probably around $500m. That puts it in the realm of the Voyager probes for total cost.
        saalweachter 7y ago
        7.5 metric tons is also over ten times the mass of each Voyager probe.
Hitton 7y ago
I think millipede memory[0] could have managed that, too bad the technology got shelved. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millipede_memory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millipede_memory

Someone1234 7y ago

Storing that amount of information in a way that an unknown alien species would be able to read (even assuming technical expertise greater than our own) is a huge problem. Keep in mind that they don't know our written or computational language and there's nothing about our technology that is inherently self-explaining/obvious. Even the assumption that they'd use binary computers (rather than trinary, or other technology not based around electrical voltages) is open to debate.

buboard 7y ago
> an unknown alien species Not necessarily for aliens ... but why not keep a backup in a safe place outside the dangers of earthlings ? OTOH, I think a sufficiently advanced alien intelligence will be able to decipher the information structures we use regardless of differences in technology. It's possible though there will be missing links in that archive, which will need to be supplemented with a primary secondary and high school curriculim.
- caleb-allen 7y ago
  What about a satellite backup in orbit around earth? Maybe an elliptical orbit, coming around a few times a year or something
  - 0xdeadbeefbabe 7y ago
    What format? I'm eager to know the solution to this non-problem.
    - buboard 7y ago
      pdf of course!
caleb-allen 7y ago
/Godel, Escher, Bach/ has an interesting thought experiment about exactly this. If one were to receive an object, how would it be indicated that there is a message embedded in there? Given that a intelligence could recognize that there was a message embedded, could it eventually be deciphered?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

walrus01 7y ago

there is no need to put a data storage archive on something shot out into interstellar space. geostationary telecommunications satellites are at a sufficiently high enough orbit that they will likely outlast human civilization. We could destroy ourselves with nuclear war, regress to a stone age level of technology, rediscover spaceflight and go find them long before the orbits of any of them decay.

buboard 7y ago
too close to the warzone to survive
- walrus01 7y ago
  okay, high Mars orbit. Quite a lot less delta-v requirement for some theoretical several thousand kilogram chunk of long-lifespan data storage, and easier to discover and retrieve, than achieving solar escape velocity (look at the delta-v budget for the new horizons probe vs. its total size and weight, for instance).
  - zaarn 7y ago
    I'd probably put a signaling system on it. Some large RTG using elements with a long half life and extremely redundant systems that send a weak signal towards earth, just over the background noise. Some regular signal ("DATA" as a morse code) that repeats from an unknown object orbiting mars? I'd bet that any civilization would be flying there ASAP to see what it is about. The crux is really making a simple radio transmitter that can survive that long but the parameters are very weak (ie, the frequency is allowed to shift so long as it remains somewhat in a region that can be received on earth's surface, it needs a very long last power source but doesn't need a lot of power, unidirectional transmission is fine as long as it arrives).

claudiawerner 7y ago

This is an interesting idea because there's a lot of radical political and philosophical publications on there. Brill's Historical Materialsim book series is on there almost in its entirety.