10 ms·

Firefox Full-device VPN

248 points by heh 7y ago

swebs 7y ago
>Does Firefox Private Network log my browsing history? >Firefox is committed to protecting your privacy. Our privacy policy describes how we handle your data. The VPN is provided in partnership with Mullvad, who is committed to not monitoring or logging your browsing or network history. So in other words, Mullvad doesn't track you but Mozilla does. Is that interpretation correct?
- lmorchard 7y ago
  Nope, not correct.
atonse 7y ago
To those who are curious (as I was), they use Wireguard and have partnered with Mullvad for the servers.
- darau1 7y ago
  Where's that mentioned? edit: never mind
  - commoner 7y ago
    > About our trusted partner > Firefox Private Network full-device protection is a VPN built by Firefox using global WireGuard servers provided by Mullvad, which has committed not to keep logs of any kind. https://private-network.firefox.com/vpn https://private-network.firefox.com/vpn
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
rinchik 7y ago
I might be paranoid a bit - I'm skeptical about "you can pick your location" feature. And generally I have a very little trust in US-based VPN service providers. No matter the location, they'll keep logs forever for the gov or some other equally unreliable entity.
- commoner 7y ago
  Mullvad is based in Sweden. Their site has details on their no-logging policy and summaries of the relevant Swedish laws: https://mullvad.net/en/help/no-logging-data-policy/ https://mullvad.net/en/help/no-logging-data-policy/ https://mullvad.net/en/help/swedish-legislation/ https://mullvad.net/en/help/swedish-legislation/ Of course, it's up to you to determine how much you want to trust them.
- Proven 7y ago
  I don't get this - one adversary most people (and certainly almost all individual users) worry about is the government. It's trivial for the government to see who runs a VPN connection to this service and identify all users. Just using this service automatically puts you on the government radar.
hellcow 7y ago
Last time this was presented Mozilla mentioned a partnership with ProtonVPN. To any Mozillians reading this, what was the reason for the switch to Mullvad? Also will we be able to use our own standard Wireguard clients to connect?
- commoner 7y ago
  It doesn't look like ProtonVPN supports WireGuard yet. https://protonvpn.com/blog/whats-the-best-vpn-protocol/ https://protonvpn.com/blog/whats-the-best-vpn-protocol/ Edit: As Gaelan mentioned below, this is an answer to hellcow's first question.
  - justusthane 7y ago
    The parent comment specifically states that Mozilla switched to Mullvad as the provider, and the linked article mentions that Mullvad uses Wireguard.
    - Gaelan 7y ago
      hellcow was asking why they switched to Mulled. commoner suggested it was because ProtonVPN didn't do WireGuard.
  - fulafel 7y ago
    Why would WireGuard be important? It's nice technically but the benefits vs mature protocols are not really material in a vpn service's value proposition, compared to other properties.
    - Semaphor 7y ago
      I recently became a mullvad customer and used wireguard for the first time. Maybe this is a windows thing, but it's so, so much faster than what I was used to from openVPN, ike, etc.
      - deleted 7y ago
threatofrain 7y ago
Mozilla need to clarify their relationship and perspective with ProtonVPN, especially because they always stay above the dirt slinging with the CEO of PIA claiming on HN and Reddit that ProtonVPN is a low credibility business.
- commoner 7y ago
  Firefox Private Network uses Cloudflare for the browser extension and Mullvad for the desktop and mobile clients. > Our partner for FPN Browser Protection is Cloudflare. Our partner for FPN Full-device Protection is Mullvad. https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/firefox-private-network/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/firefox-private-networ... Mozilla previously sold ProtonVPN as an affiliate for $10/month, but Firefox Private Network doesn't use them at all. https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2018/10/22/testing-new-ways-to-keep-you-safe-online/ https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2018/10/22/testing-n...
  - threatofrain 7y ago
    But is Mozilla dropping mention of ProtonVPN due to a loss of confidence after the PIA CEO engaged in mud slinging on public forums? It’s noticeable that Mozilla never really defended their “associate”.
    - commoner 7y ago
      Only someone from Mozilla could tell you for sure, but I think it's more likely that Mozilla didn't choose ProtonVPN for FPN because ProtonVPN doesn't currently support WireGuard.
    - protonmail 7y ago
      No, and this is supported by the timing. PIA made the inaccurate (and now withdrawn) allegations in July. Mozilla was aware of the allegations, visited Proton in Geneva, looked into said allegations, and announced the Proton partnership in October. Proton doesn't support Wireguard which is the protocol Mozilla wanted to use. This was a conscious decision because Wireguard is UDP only, which poses a significant problem for many Proton users which are based in countries with strict censorship and UDP VPN protocols are easier to block. Therefore, Proton's VPN focus has shifted to working on TCP based solutions which can resist DPI. While Proton and Mozilla's VPN focuses have diverged, there is still collaborations and discussions in other areas. For example, Thunderbird is integrating Enigmail, which is based upon the OpenPGPjs library that Proton maintains. Proton and Mozilla have similar missions, and will continue to support each other in the future.
freedrock87 7y ago
Watching Firefox sinking to essentially licensing its name like an obsolete fashion brand is sad.
- nothrabannosir 7y ago
  Whatever it takes to get reduce their reliance on Google. Mozilla’s goals are at odds with the direction in which Google is taking Chrome, so their dependency on Google is unhealthy at best. Money is a necessary evil, choices must be made.
  - dastx 7y ago
    This. And since I've been looking for a new VPN provider after recent issues with PIA and NordVPN, I'd be happy to pay Mozilla for it. I've also heard a lot of good things about Mullvad so I'm definitely a customer when it's available here.
    - input_sh 7y ago
      I feel the same way. I still have a PIA subscription for a few months, which I'm now planning on using until this becomes available in more regions (+ on more platforms, Linux and Android in my case), but as soon as it does, I'll be happy to switch over.
- basch 7y ago
  It's a great idea to use Firefox like Wirecutter, as a recommendation for the best of each service type. Combine that with some thin interface over the top, like an OS, to control all the services you subscribe to with unified billing. Password leaks, manager, file sharing, bookmark sync, vpn, dns, newsfeed. Now a new person starting out on the internet doesnt need to learn about haveibeenpwned, dropbox, mullvad, cloudflare, and facebook/pocket. They can let Firefox (hopefully) select the best of each product type, and white label it as part of the Firefox family.
  - johnnycab 7y ago
jedisct1 7y ago
So, the regular price is $5.00/month, but with that incredible partnership, it's only $4.99! This is a game changer!
- commoner 7y ago
  Mullvad actually charges €5/month, which is about $5.54. (This doesn't take into account the 10% discount if you pay with Bitcoin or Bitcoin Cash.) The $4.99 rate would be a 55 cent discount over the standard rate, which matches the cryptocurrency discount and would likely help support Firefox financially. Mozilla has been trying to diversify its revenue for a long time: https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/02/13/revenue-diversification-the-mozilla-way/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/02/13/revenue-diversifica...
  - myu701 7y ago
    I plan to do this as I was going to use Mullvad; now I can help Firefox reduce the Google reliance at the same time? Sign me up
jplayer01 7y ago
I don't understand. Their partner is Mullvad. Mullvad has servers across the entire god damn globe. Why is this US-only? Why is it US-only going into early 2020, as in, months to provide service to non-US regions in what's probably going to be a limited roll-out to "select regions"? It's not the 90s anymore. It's time to drop the US-centric crap. They're not a publisher. They're not distributing movies or TV series.
- tmikaeld 7y ago
  I think it's because Firefox have made their own client and they only want to offer Wireguard connections. Since Wireguard is still a bit new and buggy, they probably want to make sure it's stable and roll out in stages.
  - jplayer01 7y ago
    Wireguard isn't US-only in any way. Like, I literally do not understand at all. I can download a working, functional, largely stable Wireguard client on my phone or configure it on my Linux desktop without issue from outside the US. Like, US-based has no bearing on any of this. At all.
    - warhorse10_9 7y ago
      Where did you get an implication that Wireguard was US-only. The poster you are replying to is simply stating since Wireguard may still be a bit buggy, they are rolling this out in the US first to iron out any kinks before making it widely available.
      - admax88q 7y ago
        But how does rolling it out US only first help with the fact that Wireguard is buggy. They are already rolling it out slowly via a waiting list. Limiting that to US only doesn't really change how "widely available" it is in order to iron out the kinds. Seem more likely this is regulatory related.
kgwxd 7y ago
With the pending sale of PIA to CyberGhost, I was looking for an alternative to Librem Tunnel. A lot of users on the Purism forum suggested Mullvad and it looks like this uses that. I'll definitely be trying this on Linux when it's available. It's a shame Purism picked PIA to partner with, I want to support the company but Librem Tunnel is the only feature justifying the $7.99/month Librem One fee for me and I don't want any of that going to CyberGhost. I use Librem Mail too, but they don't offer a price package that includes email without VPN.
- ericvolp12 7y ago
  Mullvad already supports linux wireguard clients if you want to just cut out the firefox middleman and use it internationally too - https://mullvad.net/en/download/#linux https://mullvad.net/en/download/#linux
- privateprofile 7y ago
  Could you expand on why you, if I understood correctly, distrust CyberGhost? It's getting hard to identify a trustworthy VPN provider, and CyberGhost seems to rate decently on thatoneprivacysite.net; in which, incidentally, I'm unsure whether to trust, although its VPN evaluation vectors do seem pretty appropriate and complete.
rsync 7y ago
Shouldn't this be served from firefoxfulldevicevpn.com ?
LatteLazy 7y ago
I'm way below the technical skill average on HN, so can I prevale upon someone to correct me? This is just a vpn right? My existing vpn is already putting all device traffic through its servers (though it would actually be nice to turn it off for some apps, as I can't order takeaway because everyone thinks I'm in Iceland). And its $5 a month, which is about what I already pay. Plus its not available except on windows 10 (where its beta). And its US only What is Firefox/Mozilla offering me here that I don't get from NordVpn (who I hifhly recommend)?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- LatteLazy 7y ago
  Best I can find is the primatives "Ed25519 for certificates, Curve25519 for key exchange (ECDHE), and ChaCha20-Poly1305 for data streams but that suite isn’t supported by OpenVPN"...
- hellcow 7y ago
  You mean the NordVPN that was hacked for god knows how long, knew about it themselves for months, and both deliberately hid that information from their customers and failed to fix the issue in a reasonable timeframe? [0] With Mozilla you get someone you can hopefully trust (hopefully being the operative word). [0] https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/21/nordvpn-confirms-it-was-hacked/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/21/nordvpn-confirms-it-was-ha...
  - LatteLazy 7y ago
    Again, I'm happy to be corrected, but I thought that affected 1 server out of 1000s? Errors will inevitably happen with any system on that scale. Will Mozilla be more forthcoming or secure? Maybe but surely 1 error per 1000 servers is a manageable known risk vs Mozilla "may be perfect or terrible"?
    - commoner 7y ago
      NordVPN was mainly criticized for how they handled the disclosure. They didn't admit to the server breach until a whistleblower revealed it publicly a year later. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-21/after-twitter-allegations-nord-vpn-discloses-2018-breach https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-21/after-twi... The utility of a VPN is mainly based on trust, and NordVPN's lack of transparency in that incident is a breach of trust.
wnevets 7y ago
This is how much it cost to run an outline vpn on digitalocean
- commoner 7y ago
  Outline is an excellent piece of software, but VPN services mix traffic from many users through the same IP address, which may improve anonymity.
qxnqd 7y ago
Why is the Mozilla Corporation diluting the Firefox brand like this?
- vinylkey 7y ago
  How is this brand dilution?
  - qxnqd 7y ago
    Because Firefox is a browser, not a family of products. Well, now it is, but they already had a brand for their family of products: Mozilla.
    - vinylkey 7y ago
      They've been pivoting the Firefox name to encompass many privacy-minded tools for a while now. I would argue that a Firefox VPN strengthens that branding. https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/ > Meet our family of products - Browsers - Monitor - Send - Lockwise - Pocket
    - lmorchard 7y ago
      Frankly, very few people know Mozilla. Many people know Firefox. There's been lots of brand research into this. So, for many years now, "Firefox" has been morphing into a brand that encompasses many online tools beyond the browser that are all intended to be tied together by Mozilla's mission & manifesto.
jumbopapa 7y ago
So what is the benefit of getting this through Firefox instead of Mullvad? They want my email to sign up for the waitlist, but Mullvad requires nothing. Seems like it may even be linked to your Firefox account.
- commoner 7y ago
  If you already use Mullvad, Firefox Private Network probably won't be an improvement for you. However, this partnership would most likely benefit both Firefox and Mullvad. Firefox gets a stream of revenue (independent of Google) that would be used to finance development, and Mullvad acquires additional customers through the partnership who would otherwise not know about it.
  - jumbopapa 7y ago
    I know that, but what I'm saying is that you lose a degree of privacy going through Mozilla.
anewguy9000 7y ago
just fyi opera has had a free built-in vpn for some time. works a peach.
- danarel 7y ago
  Opera VPN collects user data. It's right in their policy. It's not a privacy respecting service.
angerbot 7y ago
I thought WireGuard was not yet ready for primetime, why is it being used here? I've been wanting to stand up a VPN at work to make my life easier than SSH tunneling but I was waiting for a 1.0 release of WG.
- zamalek 7y ago
  WireGuard is, from what I understand, probably ready for prime-time, it simply hasn't been proven to be.
- dx87 7y ago
  Looking on the WireGuard site, it says that it's still a work in progress that "may contain security quirks", but they also say "already it might be regarded as the most secure, easiest to use, and simplest VPN solution in the industry." Both statements could be true, but I guess it's up to you whether or not you want to wait for a 1.0 release.
  - zx2c4 7y ago
    We'll change the language on the site once we're upstream in the Linux kernel. Hopefully that's around the corner.
acd 7y ago
Mullvad vpn is very good which Firefox vpn is based on.
gnulinux 7y ago
So do they keep access logs for law enforcement? If this is the same VPN as Mullvard that means they don't? Could someone clarify maybe?
- tyingq 7y ago
  It's there on the page. "About our trusted partner Firefox Private Network full-device protection is a VPN built by Firefox using global WireGuard servers provided by Mullvad, which has committed not to keep logs of any kind."
- derimagia 7y ago
  They link to Mullvad's No Logging Policy: https://mullvad.net/en/help/no-logging-data-policy/ https://mullvad.net/en/help/no-logging-data-policy/
- heavyset_go 7y ago
  If Mullvad is in the US, courts can compel Mullvad to siphon their clients' information and not disclose it despite any claims their policy makes.
  - alexfromapex 7y ago
    Yeah I wouldn’t use any US VPN unless it had a warrant canary and didn’t keep logs
    - tssva 7y ago
      It which countries do you think a VPN provider can ignore a court issued warrant?
  - zaarn 7y ago
    Mullvad is in Sweden IIRC.
- wglb 7y ago
  Just because they don't now, doesn't mean they might later. Law enforcement may override that in some circumstances.
noisy_boy 7y ago
Does Mullvad offer ad-blocking dns (like AdGuard)? Maybe Mozilla should start a beta program for this considering they are considered fairly trustworthy.
- heavyset_go 7y ago
  If it's WireGuard based, the client allows you to specify your DNS servers.
azinman2 7y ago
Perhaps Mullvad is great. I don’t know. The whole VPN industry is full of shucksters, and when Mozilla says that Mullvad has “committed” to privacy doesn’t sound like enough heft to me. Why isn’t Mozilla running their own servers if this really is something worth getting into? They’re one of the few privacy and public good companies we have left.
- shortandsweet 7y ago
  Exactly. I was baited by the Firefox name.
- lmorchard 7y ago
  Consider another angle: Mozilla doesn't have experience running a VPN. There are a lot of terrible mistakes to be made there. If Mozilla can secure a good contract with folks who have run a VPN, isn't that a better technical scenario? I mean, sure, you have to assume that the contract has teeth to enforce privacy guarantees. But I think that's part of the value proposition here.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
phyzome 7y ago
Given that they're rebranding Mullvad's service, I wonder if they'll still accept anonymous payments.
imharvey 7y ago
A partnership with OVPN.com would have been much better with their high security focus. However, Mullvad is probably fine.
Justsignedup 7y ago
I guess it is Mozilla's name behind it... but... I guess fundamentally... you still can't use shit like netflix or any other media services because they actively block vpns.
morpheuskafka 7y ago
One the one hand, I'm glad they are using a trusted partner like Mullvad. On the other hand, why would you join a waitlist for a service that requires you to link your account to a US credit card--when you can literally mail cash to Mullvad and be completely anonymous.

248 points by heh 7y ago

>Does Firefox Private Network log my browsing history? >Firefox is committed to protecting your privacy. Our privacy policy describes how we handle your data. The VPN is provided in partnership with Mullvad, who is committed to not monitoring or logging your browsing or network history. So in other words, Mullvad doesn't track you but Mozilla does. Is that interpretation correct?

lmorchard 7y ago
Nope, not correct.

atonse 7y ago

To those who are curious (as I was), they use Wireguard and have partnered with Mullvad for the servers.

darau1 7y ago
Where's that mentioned? edit: never mind
- commoner 7y ago
  > About our trusted partner > Firefox Private Network full-device protection is a VPN built by Firefox using global WireGuard servers provided by Mullvad, which has committed not to keep logs of any kind. https://private-network.firefox.com/vpn https://private-network.firefox.com/vpn
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

rinchik 7y ago

I might be paranoid a bit - I'm skeptical about "you can pick your location" feature. And generally I have a very little trust in US-based VPN service providers. No matter the location, they'll keep logs forever for the gov or some other equally unreliable entity.

commoner 7y ago
Mullvad is based in Sweden. Their site has details on their no-logging policy and summaries of the relevant Swedish laws: https://mullvad.net/en/help/no-logging-data-policy/ https://mullvad.net/en/help/no-logging-data-policy/ https://mullvad.net/en/help/swedish-legislation/ https://mullvad.net/en/help/swedish-legislation/ Of course, it's up to you to determine how much you want to trust them.
Proven 7y ago
I don't get this - one adversary most people (and certainly almost all individual users) worry about is the government. It's trivial for the government to see who runs a VPN connection to this service and identify all users. Just using this service automatically puts you on the government radar.

hellcow 7y ago

Last time this was presented Mozilla mentioned a partnership with ProtonVPN. To any Mozillians reading this, what was the reason for the switch to Mullvad? Also will we be able to use our own standard Wireguard clients to connect?

commoner 7y ago
It doesn't look like ProtonVPN supports WireGuard yet. https://protonvpn.com/blog/whats-the-best-vpn-protocol/ https://protonvpn.com/blog/whats-the-best-vpn-protocol/ Edit: As Gaelan mentioned below, this is an answer to hellcow's first question.
- justusthane 7y ago
  The parent comment specifically states that Mozilla switched to Mullvad as the provider, and the linked article mentions that Mullvad uses Wireguard.
  - Gaelan 7y ago
    hellcow was asking why they switched to Mulled. commoner suggested it was because ProtonVPN didn't do WireGuard.
- fulafel 7y ago
  Why would WireGuard be important? It's nice technically but the benefits vs mature protocols are not really material in a vpn service's value proposition, compared to other properties.
  - Semaphor 7y ago
    I recently became a mullvad customer and used wireguard for the first time. Maybe this is a windows thing, but it's so, so much faster than what I was used to from openVPN, ike, etc.
    - deleted 7y ago

threatofrain 7y ago

Mozilla need to clarify their relationship and perspective with ProtonVPN, especially because they always stay above the dirt slinging with the CEO of PIA claiming on HN and Reddit that ProtonVPN is a low credibility business.

commoner 7y ago
Firefox Private Network uses Cloudflare for the browser extension and Mullvad for the desktop and mobile clients. > Our partner for FPN Browser Protection is Cloudflare. Our partner for FPN Full-device Protection is Mullvad. https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/firefox-private-network/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/privacy/firefox-private-networ... Mozilla previously sold ProtonVPN as an affiliate for $10/month, but Firefox Private Network doesn't use them at all. https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2018/10/22/testing-new-ways-to-keep-you-safe-online/ https://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2018/10/22/testing-n...
- threatofrain 7y ago
  But is Mozilla dropping mention of ProtonVPN due to a loss of confidence after the PIA CEO engaged in mud slinging on public forums? It’s noticeable that Mozilla never really defended their “associate”.
  - commoner 7y ago
    Only someone from Mozilla could tell you for sure, but I think it's more likely that Mozilla didn't choose ProtonVPN for FPN because ProtonVPN doesn't currently support WireGuard.
  - protonmail 7y ago
    No, and this is supported by the timing. PIA made the inaccurate (and now withdrawn) allegations in July. Mozilla was aware of the allegations, visited Proton in Geneva, looked into said allegations, and announced the Proton partnership in October. Proton doesn't support Wireguard which is the protocol Mozilla wanted to use. This was a conscious decision because Wireguard is UDP only, which poses a significant problem for many Proton users which are based in countries with strict censorship and UDP VPN protocols are easier to block. Therefore, Proton's VPN focus has shifted to working on TCP based solutions which can resist DPI. While Proton and Mozilla's VPN focuses have diverged, there is still collaborations and discussions in other areas. For example, Thunderbird is integrating Enigmail, which is based upon the OpenPGPjs library that Proton maintains. Proton and Mozilla have similar missions, and will continue to support each other in the future.

freedrock87 7y ago

Watching Firefox sinking to essentially licensing its name like an obsolete fashion brand is sad.

nothrabannosir 7y ago
Whatever it takes to get reduce their reliance on Google. Mozilla’s goals are at odds with the direction in which Google is taking Chrome, so their dependency on Google is unhealthy at best. Money is a necessary evil, choices must be made.
- dastx 7y ago
  This. And since I've been looking for a new VPN provider after recent issues with PIA and NordVPN, I'd be happy to pay Mozilla for it. I've also heard a lot of good things about Mullvad so I'm definitely a customer when it's available here.
  - input_sh 7y ago
    I feel the same way. I still have a PIA subscription for a few months, which I'm now planning on using until this becomes available in more regions (+ on more platforms, Linux and Android in my case), but as soon as it does, I'll be happy to switch over.
basch 7y ago
It's a great idea to use Firefox like Wirecutter, as a recommendation for the best of each service type. Combine that with some thin interface over the top, like an OS, to control all the services you subscribe to with unified billing. Password leaks, manager, file sharing, bookmark sync, vpn, dns, newsfeed. Now a new person starting out on the internet doesnt need to learn about haveibeenpwned, dropbox, mullvad, cloudflare, and facebook/pocket. They can let Firefox (hopefully) select the best of each product type, and white label it as part of the Firefox family.
- johnnycab 7y ago

jedisct1 7y ago

So, the regular price is $5.00/month, but with that incredible partnership, it's only $4.99! This is a game changer!

commoner 7y ago
Mullvad actually charges €5/month, which is about $5.54. (This doesn't take into account the 10% discount if you pay with Bitcoin or Bitcoin Cash.) The $4.99 rate would be a 55 cent discount over the standard rate, which matches the cryptocurrency discount and would likely help support Firefox financially. Mozilla has been trying to diversify its revenue for a long time: https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/02/13/revenue-diversification-the-mozilla-way/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/02/13/revenue-diversifica...
- myu701 7y ago
  I plan to do this as I was going to use Mullvad; now I can help Firefox reduce the Google reliance at the same time? Sign me up

jplayer01 7y ago

I don't understand. Their partner is Mullvad. Mullvad has servers across the entire god damn globe. Why is this US-only? Why is it US-only going into early 2020, as in, months to provide service to non-US regions in what's probably going to be a limited roll-out to "select regions"? It's not the 90s anymore. It's time to drop the US-centric crap. They're not a publisher. They're not distributing movies or TV series.

tmikaeld 7y ago
I think it's because Firefox have made their own client and they only want to offer Wireguard connections. Since Wireguard is still a bit new and buggy, they probably want to make sure it's stable and roll out in stages.
- jplayer01 7y ago
  Wireguard isn't US-only in any way. Like, I literally do not understand at all. I can download a working, functional, largely stable Wireguard client on my phone or configure it on my Linux desktop without issue from outside the US. Like, US-based has no bearing on any of this. At all.
  - warhorse10_9 7y ago
    Where did you get an implication that Wireguard was US-only. The poster you are replying to is simply stating since Wireguard may still be a bit buggy, they are rolling this out in the US first to iron out any kinks before making it widely available.
    - admax88q 7y ago
      But how does rolling it out US only first help with the fact that Wireguard is buggy. They are already rolling it out slowly via a waiting list. Limiting that to US only doesn't really change how "widely available" it is in order to iron out the kinds. Seem more likely this is regulatory related.

kgwxd 7y ago

With the pending sale of PIA to CyberGhost, I was looking for an alternative to Librem Tunnel. A lot of users on the Purism forum suggested Mullvad and it looks like this uses that. I'll definitely be trying this on Linux when it's available. It's a shame Purism picked PIA to partner with, I want to support the company but Librem Tunnel is the only feature justifying the $7.99/month Librem One fee for me and I don't want any of that going to CyberGhost. I use Librem Mail too, but they don't offer a price package that includes email without VPN.

ericvolp12 7y ago
Mullvad already supports linux wireguard clients if you want to just cut out the firefox middleman and use it internationally too - https://mullvad.net/en/download/#linux https://mullvad.net/en/download/#linux
privateprofile 7y ago
Could you expand on why you, if I understood correctly, distrust CyberGhost? It's getting hard to identify a trustworthy VPN provider, and CyberGhost seems to rate decently on thatoneprivacysite.net; in which, incidentally, I'm unsure whether to trust, although its VPN evaluation vectors do seem pretty appropriate and complete.

rsync 7y ago

Shouldn't this be served from firefoxfulldevicevpn.com ?

LatteLazy 7y ago

I'm way below the technical skill average on HN, so can I prevale upon someone to correct me? This is just a vpn right? My existing vpn is already putting all device traffic through its servers (though it would actually be nice to turn it off for some apps, as I can't order takeaway because everyone thinks I'm in Iceland). And its $5 a month, which is about what I already pay. Plus its not available except on windows 10 (where its beta). And its US only What is Firefox/Mozilla offering me here that I don't get from NordVpn (who I hifhly recommend)?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
LatteLazy 7y ago
Best I can find is the primatives "Ed25519 for certificates, Curve25519 for key exchange (ECDHE), and ChaCha20-Poly1305 for data streams but that suite isn’t supported by OpenVPN"...
hellcow 7y ago
You mean the NordVPN that was hacked for god knows how long, knew about it themselves for months, and both deliberately hid that information from their customers and failed to fix the issue in a reasonable timeframe? [0] With Mozilla you get someone you can hopefully trust (hopefully being the operative word). [0] https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/21/nordvpn-confirms-it-was-hacked/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/21/nordvpn-confirms-it-was-ha...
- LatteLazy 7y ago
  Again, I'm happy to be corrected, but I thought that affected 1 server out of 1000s? Errors will inevitably happen with any system on that scale. Will Mozilla be more forthcoming or secure? Maybe but surely 1 error per 1000 servers is a manageable known risk vs Mozilla "may be perfect or terrible"?
  - commoner 7y ago
    NordVPN was mainly criticized for how they handled the disclosure. They didn't admit to the server breach until a whistleblower revealed it publicly a year later. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-21/after-twitter-allegations-nord-vpn-discloses-2018-breach https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-21/after-twi... The utility of a VPN is mainly based on trust, and NordVPN's lack of transparency in that incident is a breach of trust.

wnevets 7y ago

This is how much it cost to run an outline vpn on digitalocean

commoner 7y ago
Outline is an excellent piece of software, but VPN services mix traffic from many users through the same IP address, which may improve anonymity.

qxnqd 7y ago

Why is the Mozilla Corporation diluting the Firefox brand like this?

vinylkey 7y ago
How is this brand dilution?
- qxnqd 7y ago
  Because Firefox is a browser, not a family of products. Well, now it is, but they already had a brand for their family of products: Mozilla.
  - vinylkey 7y ago
    They've been pivoting the Firefox name to encompass many privacy-minded tools for a while now. I would argue that a Firefox VPN strengthens that branding. https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/ > Meet our family of products - Browsers - Monitor - Send - Lockwise - Pocket
  - lmorchard 7y ago
    Frankly, very few people know Mozilla. Many people know Firefox. There's been lots of brand research into this. So, for many years now, "Firefox" has been morphing into a brand that encompasses many online tools beyond the browser that are all intended to be tied together by Mozilla's mission & manifesto.

jumbopapa 7y ago

So what is the benefit of getting this through Firefox instead of Mullvad? They want my email to sign up for the waitlist, but Mullvad requires nothing. Seems like it may even be linked to your Firefox account.

commoner 7y ago
If you already use Mullvad, Firefox Private Network probably won't be an improvement for you. However, this partnership would most likely benefit both Firefox and Mullvad. Firefox gets a stream of revenue (independent of Google) that would be used to finance development, and Mullvad acquires additional customers through the partnership who would otherwise not know about it.
- jumbopapa 7y ago
  I know that, but what I'm saying is that you lose a degree of privacy going through Mozilla.

anewguy9000 7y ago

just fyi opera has had a free built-in vpn for some time. works a peach.

danarel 7y ago
Opera VPN collects user data. It's right in their policy. It's not a privacy respecting service.

angerbot 7y ago

I thought WireGuard was not yet ready for primetime, why is it being used here? I've been wanting to stand up a VPN at work to make my life easier than SSH tunneling but I was waiting for a 1.0 release of WG.

zamalek 7y ago
WireGuard is, from what I understand, probably ready for prime-time, it simply hasn't been proven to be.
dx87 7y ago
Looking on the WireGuard site, it says that it's still a work in progress that "may contain security quirks", but they also say "already it might be regarded as the most secure, easiest to use, and simplest VPN solution in the industry." Both statements could be true, but I guess it's up to you whether or not you want to wait for a 1.0 release.
- zx2c4 7y ago
  We'll change the language on the site once we're upstream in the Linux kernel. Hopefully that's around the corner.

acd 7y ago

Mullvad vpn is very good which Firefox vpn is based on.

gnulinux 7y ago

So do they keep access logs for law enforcement? If this is the same VPN as Mullvard that means they don't? Could someone clarify maybe?

tyingq 7y ago
It's there on the page. "About our trusted partner Firefox Private Network full-device protection is a VPN built by Firefox using global WireGuard servers provided by Mullvad, which has committed not to keep logs of any kind."
derimagia 7y ago
They link to Mullvad's No Logging Policy: https://mullvad.net/en/help/no-logging-data-policy/ https://mullvad.net/en/help/no-logging-data-policy/
heavyset_go 7y ago
If Mullvad is in the US, courts can compel Mullvad to siphon their clients' information and not disclose it despite any claims their policy makes.
- alexfromapex 7y ago
  Yeah I wouldn’t use any US VPN unless it had a warrant canary and didn’t keep logs
  - tssva 7y ago
    It which countries do you think a VPN provider can ignore a court issued warrant?
- zaarn 7y ago
  Mullvad is in Sweden IIRC.
wglb 7y ago
Just because they don't now, doesn't mean they might later. Law enforcement may override that in some circumstances.

noisy_boy 7y ago

Does Mullvad offer ad-blocking dns (like AdGuard)? Maybe Mozilla should start a beta program for this considering they are considered fairly trustworthy.

heavyset_go 7y ago
If it's WireGuard based, the client allows you to specify your DNS servers.

azinman2 7y ago

Perhaps Mullvad is great. I don’t know. The whole VPN industry is full of shucksters, and when Mozilla says that Mullvad has “committed” to privacy doesn’t sound like enough heft to me. Why isn’t Mozilla running their own servers if this really is something worth getting into? They’re one of the few privacy and public good companies we have left.

shortandsweet 7y ago
Exactly. I was baited by the Firefox name.
lmorchard 7y ago
Consider another angle: Mozilla doesn't have experience running a VPN. There are a lot of terrible mistakes to be made there. If Mozilla can secure a good contract with folks who have run a VPN, isn't that a better technical scenario? I mean, sure, you have to assume that the contract has teeth to enforce privacy guarantees. But I think that's part of the value proposition here.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

phyzome 7y ago

Given that they're rebranding Mullvad's service, I wonder if they'll still accept anonymous payments.

imharvey 7y ago

A partnership with OVPN.com would have been much better with their high security focus. However, Mullvad is probably fine.

Justsignedup 7y ago

I guess it is Mozilla's name behind it... but... I guess fundamentally... you still can't use shit like netflix or any other media services because they actively block vpns.

morpheuskafka 7y ago

One the one hand, I'm glad they are using a trusted partner like Mullvad. On the other hand, why would you join a waitlist for a service that requires you to link your account to a US credit card--when you can literally mail cash to Mullvad and be completely anonymous.