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An additional angle is that the state is well and truly out of money and running out of lenders, yet continues to see the number of poor and their related costs

An additional angle is that the state is well and truly out of money and running out of lenders, yet continues to see the number of poor and their related costs increase. One way to offset growth in welfare expenses might be to permit poor people some way to directly steal with impunity, thus they can still somehow be fed, while simultaneously reducing attendant enforcement costs and prison populations.

azinman2 7y ago
Using theft as a mechanism for eating is about as broken as you can get. As pointed out by the GP, that theft disproportionally affects the poor directly (their stuff is stolen) and indirectly (their insurance costs are higher). Not everything is about spending more to fed those already at the bottom — it’s better to prevent that in the first place. While certainly not a simple problem with simple answers, macro changes in culture would go a long way without requiring capital spending. Notice how low the crime rate is in Japan, despite plenty poor and hungry. Not without problems, the societal focus on family and thinking of the larger group has its benefits. The US could benefit a lot from changes in its culture to be less individualistic (and punishment oriented) and more civic minded.
- generalpass 7y ago
  Do you propose that the thief is rich or does not benefit from the theft? The poor do little to directly increase revenues, so the cold financial evaluations that states are too good at will reveal a net benefit to the state. I did not make an claim that "...everything is about spending more to fed[sic} those already at the bottom..." You are presenting a straw man. The discussion about the entire U.S., which is an incredibly diverse region inclusive of almost every demographic except those found in the very poorest nations on the planet is not useful in a discussion on a specific region within the U.S., and worse is to compare it with somewhere else in the world and make no attempt to explain why the comparison is valid.
  - azinman2 7y ago
    I don’t understand your argument at all. First, we aren’t talking about the whole US — California is literally in the title of the article. And it’s explicitly calling out SF and the Bay Area for most of the article (Scott Weiner, from SF, is the impetuous). The idea that normalizing car theft is a good thing is indefensible. You’re advocating for harming others, as well as creating a lawless society. To attempt to say this presents a solution is to ignore how we got to this place, recognizing there are plenty of other ways to address these issues. My point about Japan was not that it’s the same as the US, but rather cultural changes affect rates of criminal behavior. It’s one potential avenue that’s ignored in public debate in the US that costs no money but has great baring on our collective future.
    - generalpass 7y ago
      I'm not suggesting anything other than the state may not be interested in serving the poor and more interested in reducing what the state pays out. I did not make a statement about what I would personally prefer the state to do.
- commandlinefan 7y ago
  > Using theft as a mechanism for eating is about as broken as you can get. In addition to being inefficient, a populace that is convinced that their government won’t protect them will eventually start taking justice into their own hands. CA doesn’t seem to be there… yet.
thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
Although I don't agree with this, this is a revealing insight into understanding how the liberal thought process works. It explains why liberals are so soft on crime.

azinman2 7y ago

Using theft as a mechanism for eating is about as broken as you can get. As pointed out by the GP, that theft disproportionally affects the poor directly (their stuff is stolen) and indirectly (their insurance costs are higher). Not everything is about spending more to fed those already at the bottom — it’s better to prevent that in the first place. While certainly not a simple problem with simple answers, macro changes in culture would go a long way without requiring capital spending. Notice how low the crime rate is in Japan, despite plenty poor and hungry. Not without problems, the societal focus on family and thinking of the larger group has its benefits. The US could benefit a lot from changes in its culture to be less individualistic (and punishment oriented) and more civic minded.

generalpass 7y ago
Do you propose that the thief is rich or does not benefit from the theft? The poor do little to directly increase revenues, so the cold financial evaluations that states are too good at will reveal a net benefit to the state. I did not make an claim that "...everything is about spending more to fed[sic} those already at the bottom..." You are presenting a straw man. The discussion about the entire U.S., which is an incredibly diverse region inclusive of almost every demographic except those found in the very poorest nations on the planet is not useful in a discussion on a specific region within the U.S., and worse is to compare it with somewhere else in the world and make no attempt to explain why the comparison is valid.
- azinman2 7y ago
  I don’t understand your argument at all. First, we aren’t talking about the whole US — California is literally in the title of the article. And it’s explicitly calling out SF and the Bay Area for most of the article (Scott Weiner, from SF, is the impetuous). The idea that normalizing car theft is a good thing is indefensible. You’re advocating for harming others, as well as creating a lawless society. To attempt to say this presents a solution is to ignore how we got to this place, recognizing there are plenty of other ways to address these issues. My point about Japan was not that it’s the same as the US, but rather cultural changes affect rates of criminal behavior. It’s one potential avenue that’s ignored in public debate in the US that costs no money but has great baring on our collective future.
  - generalpass 7y ago
    I'm not suggesting anything other than the state may not be interested in serving the poor and more interested in reducing what the state pays out. I did not make a statement about what I would personally prefer the state to do.
commandlinefan 7y ago
> Using theft as a mechanism for eating is about as broken as you can get. In addition to being inefficient, a populace that is convinced that their government won’t protect them will eventually start taking justice into their own hands. CA doesn’t seem to be there… yet.

thorwasdfasdf 7y ago

Although I don't agree with this, this is a revealing insight into understanding how the liberal thought process works. It explains why liberals are so soft on crime.