10 ms·

I know a lot of you guys all live in CA, and the bay area particularly. Just so you know: this stuff sounds like madness to an outsider reading the stories in

by blhack 7y ago

I know a lot of you guys all live in CA, and the bay area particularly. Just so you know: this stuff sounds like madness to an outsider reading the stories in this thread. If things are actually the way some of you are describing them, it sounds like SF particularly is about to collapse completely. Yikes. I can't imagine living there, much less having kids there.

Zelphyr 7y ago
I used to spend a lot of time out there between 2000 and 2008 and I loved it. The bay area had a charm to it and I loved just exploring the whole area. But now... I haven't been there in over 10 years but from what I'm hearing it sounds like a terrible place to visit, much less live. I really hope I'm wrong about that, or, at least they can turn things around. I'd like someday to take my kids there and show them the places I loved to visit.
- tathougies 7y ago
  The geography and history of the bay area make it quite charming. However it would be a lot more charming if people could live there peacefully and without threat of violence. SF is living on charm borrowed from accidents of history and benevolence of the creator. At some point it'll have to be paid back
- svachalek 7y ago
  It's mostly the same as ever, except (1) even more impossible for newcomers to get housing and (2) car break-ins are really at an insane level now. Everyone I know gets robbed once a year. As a visitor neither one is worth worrying about, just make it obvious there's nothing valuable in your car and don't park it anywhere too isolated.
igammarays 7y ago
Came here to say the same thing. Sounds like the Bay Area is going the way of South Africa. The normalcy with which residents talk about crime sounds like an apocalyptic movie, not real life.
friedman23 7y ago
As a recent transplant, it's as insane as it sounds.
coreless 7y ago
Yeah, don’t worry— it sounds like madness to insiders, too. The only real “crisis” about living in SF is the highest property values anywhere on earth mean you couldn’t actually live there if you wanted to. The Bay Area is, for better and for worse, the closest thing we have to a model of a progressive utopia. That means if the presence of things like homelessness, brown people, or property crime make you feel unsafe, you will feel less safe there than you will in Irvine, CA. On the other hand, if what brings you comfort is seeing your government focus on long-term, systemic inequities instead of trying to paint over the superficial consequences of the same, then SF will feel a little better to you — Oakland moreso — and in Irvine you will live in fear of being summarily executed by the Secret Police. It’s like... based on the stories, I’m shocked that Alabama is still civil and solvent, you know? Just different perspectives.
- ageitgey 7y ago
  > The Bay Area is, for better and for worse, the closest thing we have to a model of a progressive utopia. That means if the presence of things like homelessness, brown people, or property crime make you feel unsafe, you will feel less safe there than you will in Irvine, CA. The thing about the Bay Area that is so frustrating is that other progressive cities in the world (mostly outside of the US) seem to do a much better job managing issues like homelessness, equality, property crime, access to education, etc, with less resources. So for people who love SF and want it to succeed as a progressive example, it's frustrating that it seems to fall short despite all that is invested. We want _effective_ solutions. SF has unique challenges, but very few people would say it has been trending in the right direction over the last 10 years. For example according to HUD's latest report, SF, Oakland/Berkeley and San Jose occupy _3 spots in the Top 5_ of US cities with the highest unsheltered homeless rates. NYC has way more individual homeless people than SF in total, but NYC shelters 95% of its homeless population and SF barely manages to shelter 20%. There are _more actual people_ sleeping on the streets of SF than NYC despite SF being a tiny city in comparison to NYC. It's absurd.
  - azinman2 7y ago
    Correct. The amount of money the city had to throw at these problems shows how the American way of spending their way to solutions isn’t enough. There’s zero attempt at being thoughtful and recognize what’s working (and why) — instead everything is a ballot initiative that’s voted on emotionally. It’s a total lack of leadership and quality of governance, which to me stems largely from years of capitalism mixed with reductions in government which has created a super powerful and motivated global private sector, and no civic pride and reasonable reward for those capable individuals to work for the public. We need to find a way to get our superstars in power, and not necessarily at the top only. We need a capable, civic-minded, and results-focused class of doer powering government. When the wage gap is 3-10x between private and public, and no culture of pride and civic engagement, this is what happens.
for_the_many 7y ago
You got it backwards. Madness is what happens outside of SF, where homelessness, poverty, drug usage, petty theft is criminalized. SF is a beacon of hope. We don't throw poor people in prison just because they had to break into a car to get money for their daily dose of crack. Hopefully drug usage will be completely legalized soon, and you'll be able to get your drugs from the corner grocery store, and if you are too poor to pay for them you'll get them for free. It's disgusting that in a city with so many billionaires people need to steal to make ends meet.
- refurb 7y ago
  Save the sob story for another time. SFPD has said a number of times that most car thefts are due to criminal gangs.
  - for_the_many 7y ago
    People don't join criminal gangs because they life a nice life of luxury. It's the capitalist system which forces the "losers" to join a gang.
    - simonsarris 7y ago
      That's odd because when I look at non-capitalist countries like Venezuela on Wikipedia, there are lots of mentions of gangs. Actually, the gang activity is much larger and more violent. How sure are you capitalism is the thing to blame here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Venezuela
      - DuskStar 7y ago
        Not to mention "look at this set of problems that the furthest to the left metro area in the US has! It must be the fault of CAPITALISM!" kind of falls apart when plenty of other metro areas in the US don't share those problems.
- goobynight 7y ago
rsync 7y ago
"If things are actually the way some of you are describing them, it sounds like SF particularly is about to collapse completely." It's all very sensationalist - all of it. There are very small grains of truth (about needles and homeless and feces and car break-ins) that are spun out of all proportion. As a resident of the SFBA and somebody that spends a fair amount of time in, and all over, the city, I can confirm all of it[1] ... but at the same time, SF is quite nice overall and I repeatedly have complete, multi-day interactions in the city with zero dysfunction. [1] I have been the victim of one car break-in, I have had run-ins with people using the tenderloin as a toilet, etc.
- mixedCase 7y ago
  > and I repeatedly have complete, multi-day interactions in the city with zero dysfunction. I will echo the poster you replied to you. The fact that you're celebrating that you've experienced more than a single day without seeing crime (in a 1st world country) sounds like madness to much of the rest of the world.
- OstrichFarm 7y ago
  Honestly, I find this comment hilarious. Every time I've heard someone defending the Bay Area recently it sounds like utter normalization of the insane. You've been the victim of 'only' one car break-in yourself, have seen people shitting in the street, view the homeless and drug epidemic daily, and yet expect people to think these issues are overblown because they haven't happened for multiple days at points? As someone from the outside looking in, I truly hope the U.S. gets their shit together, because it's looking pretty bleak at this point.
  - asdff 7y ago
    When I lived in Columbus, Ohio, I too had my car broken into multiple times, saw shitting in the street, passed out drunks on the bus, screaming in the grocery store, the works. Of course, none of this happened in the WASPy burbs. The insane is in every city in the U.S., whether or not you find it during your daily life is another thing. It depends on whether you live in the rich city or the parallel working class city, and whether those two cities interface. In cities where the rich are well separated from the working class (most of the east where the rich live in suburbs separated by distances only traversable by private car due to chronically poor transit), homeless is ignored because it's never seen way out in the suburbs. In cities like the west cost and the few growing cities in the east, where rich people are moving into formerly working class inner city neighborhoods, of course there is now friction. The rich and working class cities are suddenly face each other directly and constantly, and the end result is the working class is pushed out as housing prices increase, or the rich leave again and it all collapses again. Take LA. Way more homeless. Yet you get neighborhoods like hancock park, smack dab in the middle of the city, where you will just not see any homeless people, because there is no reason for anyone working class to set foot in that neighborhood. You are priced out of housing and priced out of even lattes. It's a rich suburb full of mansions, you aren't gonna get much panhandling done and will stand out like a sore thumb to police and private security who love doing favors to nagging rich white women without jobs. But there are parts like downtown la, that used to have flophouses where drunks and addicts could actually rent housing. Or echo park that was a gangland in the 90s or a thriving working class latino community depending on whose reality you consult. Now 1brs cost 2k, the flophouses are bulldozed or renovated (or just get a new coat of paint), people commanding high salaries now interface with homeless and working class people and compete for the same apartments; the two cities merge in DTLA and echo park, as well as other neighborhoods in LA with increasing gentrification. NYC has the most homeless of anywhere, 90k, and nearly half a million more living in public housing below market rents, but you don't see homeless encampments because NYC builds shelters and housing without NIMBY fuss; something like 95% of homeless are housed in NYC. In any city you see these problems, and in cities with any semblance of demand that refuse to build supply to match, resulting in unaffordable housing for everyone not pulling >60k a year, you can see how this problem can grow exponentially larger. Never forget that the problem is present in every city, be it Columbus, NYC, LA, or Tulsa. The solutions are there and accepted in academic circles, but whether or not you see these solutions and their effect is directly reflective on the local political climate.
mancerayder 7y ago
These policies are taking the country by storm, because there's a new generation in town, and that generation feels strongly about the phrase, "criminal justice." In New York state, January 1, 2020 a set of law changes take effect that reclassify many crimes to misdemeanors, turn arrests into desk tickets, and help expunge records. They want to go further than that (eliminate cash bail, and more). It's not quite as bad as California, but it's getting there. In New York City specifically, the City Council / Mayor have in the past few years decriminalized quality-of-life crimes. In the (non-right-wing) press, they put it in quotes like this, "quality-of-life crimes" like it's some game, some ruse, or like quality of life is a meaningless sin or privileged pursuit. We should all suffer equally, is the implication. Meanwhile, the city has gotten noticeably less safe, with homeless people becoming more aggressive, open urinating / drug use (of the needle variety), and incidents inside the subway. There's nothing worse than being forced to take an underground car, being locked with other people, and having other people screaming schizophrenic fantasies, or walking back and forth trying to hustle for money. Every day. Twice a day. 30-50 minutes+. It's an enforced suffering. Guess what? If you're wealthy, you have a driver and/or you live near work, you live in a doorman building, and many other amenities. Dealing with street quality-of-life issues affects poor and middle-class people, which is what is personally so enraging about these so-called progressive ideals.

by blhack 7y ago

Zelphyr 7y ago

I used to spend a lot of time out there between 2000 and 2008 and I loved it. The bay area had a charm to it and I loved just exploring the whole area. But now... I haven't been there in over 10 years but from what I'm hearing it sounds like a terrible place to visit, much less live. I really hope I'm wrong about that, or, at least they can turn things around. I'd like someday to take my kids there and show them the places I loved to visit.

tathougies 7y ago
The geography and history of the bay area make it quite charming. However it would be a lot more charming if people could live there peacefully and without threat of violence. SF is living on charm borrowed from accidents of history and benevolence of the creator. At some point it'll have to be paid back
svachalek 7y ago
It's mostly the same as ever, except (1) even more impossible for newcomers to get housing and (2) car break-ins are really at an insane level now. Everyone I know gets robbed once a year. As a visitor neither one is worth worrying about, just make it obvious there's nothing valuable in your car and don't park it anywhere too isolated.

igammarays 7y ago

Came here to say the same thing. Sounds like the Bay Area is going the way of South Africa. The normalcy with which residents talk about crime sounds like an apocalyptic movie, not real life.

friedman23 7y ago

As a recent transplant, it's as insane as it sounds.

coreless 7y ago

Yeah, don’t worry— it sounds like madness to insiders, too. The only real “crisis” about living in SF is the highest property values anywhere on earth mean you couldn’t actually live there if you wanted to. The Bay Area is, for better and for worse, the closest thing we have to a model of a progressive utopia. That means if the presence of things like homelessness, brown people, or property crime make you feel unsafe, you will feel less safe there than you will in Irvine, CA. On the other hand, if what brings you comfort is seeing your government focus on long-term, systemic inequities instead of trying to paint over the superficial consequences of the same, then SF will feel a little better to you — Oakland moreso — and in Irvine you will live in fear of being summarily executed by the Secret Police. It’s like... based on the stories, I’m shocked that Alabama is still civil and solvent, you know? Just different perspectives.

ageitgey 7y ago
> The Bay Area is, for better and for worse, the closest thing we have to a model of a progressive utopia. That means if the presence of things like homelessness, brown people, or property crime make you feel unsafe, you will feel less safe there than you will in Irvine, CA. The thing about the Bay Area that is so frustrating is that other progressive cities in the world (mostly outside of the US) seem to do a much better job managing issues like homelessness, equality, property crime, access to education, etc, with less resources. So for people who love SF and want it to succeed as a progressive example, it's frustrating that it seems to fall short despite all that is invested. We want _effective_ solutions. SF has unique challenges, but very few people would say it has been trending in the right direction over the last 10 years. For example according to HUD's latest report, SF, Oakland/Berkeley and San Jose occupy _3 spots in the Top 5_ of US cities with the highest unsheltered homeless rates. NYC has way more individual homeless people than SF in total, but NYC shelters 95% of its homeless population and SF barely manages to shelter 20%. There are _more actual people_ sleeping on the streets of SF than NYC despite SF being a tiny city in comparison to NYC. It's absurd.
- azinman2 7y ago
  Correct. The amount of money the city had to throw at these problems shows how the American way of spending their way to solutions isn’t enough. There’s zero attempt at being thoughtful and recognize what’s working (and why) — instead everything is a ballot initiative that’s voted on emotionally. It’s a total lack of leadership and quality of governance, which to me stems largely from years of capitalism mixed with reductions in government which has created a super powerful and motivated global private sector, and no civic pride and reasonable reward for those capable individuals to work for the public. We need to find a way to get our superstars in power, and not necessarily at the top only. We need a capable, civic-minded, and results-focused class of doer powering government. When the wage gap is 3-10x between private and public, and no culture of pride and civic engagement, this is what happens.

for_the_many 7y ago

You got it backwards. Madness is what happens outside of SF, where homelessness, poverty, drug usage, petty theft is criminalized. SF is a beacon of hope. We don't throw poor people in prison just because they had to break into a car to get money for their daily dose of crack. Hopefully drug usage will be completely legalized soon, and you'll be able to get your drugs from the corner grocery store, and if you are too poor to pay for them you'll get them for free. It's disgusting that in a city with so many billionaires people need to steal to make ends meet.

refurb 7y ago
Save the sob story for another time. SFPD has said a number of times that most car thefts are due to criminal gangs.
- for_the_many 7y ago
  People don't join criminal gangs because they life a nice life of luxury. It's the capitalist system which forces the "losers" to join a gang.
  - simonsarris 7y ago
    That's odd because when I look at non-capitalist countries like Venezuela on Wikipedia, there are lots of mentions of gangs. Actually, the gang activity is much larger and more violent. How sure are you capitalism is the thing to blame here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Venezuela
    - DuskStar 7y ago
      Not to mention "look at this set of problems that the furthest to the left metro area in the US has! It must be the fault of CAPITALISM!" kind of falls apart when plenty of other metro areas in the US don't share those problems.
goobynight 7y ago

rsync 7y ago

"If things are actually the way some of you are describing them, it sounds like SF particularly is about to collapse completely." It's all very sensationalist - all of it. There are very small grains of truth (about needles and homeless and feces and car break-ins) that are spun out of all proportion. As a resident of the SFBA and somebody that spends a fair amount of time in, and all over, the city, I can confirm all of it[1] ... but at the same time, SF is quite nice overall and I repeatedly have complete, multi-day interactions in the city with zero dysfunction. [1] I have been the victim of one car break-in, I have had run-ins with people using the tenderloin as a toilet, etc.

mixedCase 7y ago
> and I repeatedly have complete, multi-day interactions in the city with zero dysfunction. I will echo the poster you replied to you. The fact that you're celebrating that you've experienced more than a single day without seeing crime (in a 1st world country) sounds like madness to much of the rest of the world.
OstrichFarm 7y ago
Honestly, I find this comment hilarious. Every time I've heard someone defending the Bay Area recently it sounds like utter normalization of the insane. You've been the victim of 'only' one car break-in yourself, have seen people shitting in the street, view the homeless and drug epidemic daily, and yet expect people to think these issues are overblown because they haven't happened for multiple days at points? As someone from the outside looking in, I truly hope the U.S. gets their shit together, because it's looking pretty bleak at this point.
- asdff 7y ago
  When I lived in Columbus, Ohio, I too had my car broken into multiple times, saw shitting in the street, passed out drunks on the bus, screaming in the grocery store, the works. Of course, none of this happened in the WASPy burbs. The insane is in every city in the U.S., whether or not you find it during your daily life is another thing. It depends on whether you live in the rich city or the parallel working class city, and whether those two cities interface. In cities where the rich are well separated from the working class (most of the east where the rich live in suburbs separated by distances only traversable by private car due to chronically poor transit), homeless is ignored because it's never seen way out in the suburbs. In cities like the west cost and the few growing cities in the east, where rich people are moving into formerly working class inner city neighborhoods, of course there is now friction. The rich and working class cities are suddenly face each other directly and constantly, and the end result is the working class is pushed out as housing prices increase, or the rich leave again and it all collapses again. Take LA. Way more homeless. Yet you get neighborhoods like hancock park, smack dab in the middle of the city, where you will just not see any homeless people, because there is no reason for anyone working class to set foot in that neighborhood. You are priced out of housing and priced out of even lattes. It's a rich suburb full of mansions, you aren't gonna get much panhandling done and will stand out like a sore thumb to police and private security who love doing favors to nagging rich white women without jobs. But there are parts like downtown la, that used to have flophouses where drunks and addicts could actually rent housing. Or echo park that was a gangland in the 90s or a thriving working class latino community depending on whose reality you consult. Now 1brs cost 2k, the flophouses are bulldozed or renovated (or just get a new coat of paint), people commanding high salaries now interface with homeless and working class people and compete for the same apartments; the two cities merge in DTLA and echo park, as well as other neighborhoods in LA with increasing gentrification. NYC has the most homeless of anywhere, 90k, and nearly half a million more living in public housing below market rents, but you don't see homeless encampments because NYC builds shelters and housing without NIMBY fuss; something like 95% of homeless are housed in NYC. In any city you see these problems, and in cities with any semblance of demand that refuse to build supply to match, resulting in unaffordable housing for everyone not pulling >60k a year, you can see how this problem can grow exponentially larger. Never forget that the problem is present in every city, be it Columbus, NYC, LA, or Tulsa. The solutions are there and accepted in academic circles, but whether or not you see these solutions and their effect is directly reflective on the local political climate.

mancerayder 7y ago

These policies are taking the country by storm, because there's a new generation in town, and that generation feels strongly about the phrase, "criminal justice." In New York state, January 1, 2020 a set of law changes take effect that reclassify many crimes to misdemeanors, turn arrests into desk tickets, and help expunge records. They want to go further than that (eliminate cash bail, and more). It's not quite as bad as California, but it's getting there. In New York City specifically, the City Council / Mayor have in the past few years decriminalized quality-of-life crimes. In the (non-right-wing) press, they put it in quotes like this, "quality-of-life crimes" like it's some game, some ruse, or like quality of life is a meaningless sin or privileged pursuit. We should all suffer equally, is the implication. Meanwhile, the city has gotten noticeably less safe, with homeless people becoming more aggressive, open urinating / drug use (of the needle variety), and incidents inside the subway. There's nothing worse than being forced to take an underground car, being locked with other people, and having other people screaming schizophrenic fantasies, or walking back and forth trying to hustle for money. Every day. Twice a day. 30-50 minutes+. It's an enforced suffering. Guess what? If you're wealthy, you have a driver and/or you live near work, you live in a doorman building, and many other amenities. Dealing with street quality-of-life issues affects poor and middle-class people, which is what is personally so enraging about these so-called progressive ideals.