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> This level of surveillance is “not too over-the-top”, Ingrid said, and she feels her classmates are generally “accepting” of it. Of course they think that, t

by t34543 7y ago

> This level of surveillance is “not too over-the-top”, Ingrid said, and she feels her classmates are generally “accepting” of it. Of course they think that, they’re still kids. Who’s going to protect them from surveillance? IMO this is way over the top - and it’s conditioning future generations to accept this level of surveillance as adults.

Ididntdothis 7y ago
They probably won’t even feel safe without it.
- mywittyname 7y ago
  From what I've heard of students, the surveillance they are under is a constant reminder that they are "not safe". People are just now starting to study what should have always been obvious: that active shooter drills are traumatic to students [1]. These topics are much easier to tackle than the real issues effecting students. [1] https://www.npr.org/2019/11/10/778015261/experts-worry-active-shooter-drills-in-schools-could-be-traumatic-for-students https://www.npr.org/2019/11/10/778015261/experts-worry-activ...
  - nabnob 7y ago
    I remember seeing a post on reddit from a school teacher describing the active shooter training they received from a local police department. Apparently it just turned into an opportunity for the police to berate and shout at the teachers and students.
    - mrguyorama 7y ago
      Police training other people per-supposes that the police officers of the United States are well trained. If they are not, then the training they provide will be even worse
  - asdff 7y ago
    Who would have thought being told to corral like cattle under a table to rehearse waiting for rapid fire death wouldn't inspire much confidence.
ptero 7y ago
Agreed. And I wonder if the answer would be different if they asked parents instead of kids (who remember having regular, metal knives at school cafeterias; being able to bring a folding knife to school; etc.). It seems to me that that public acceptance of such surveillance is a side effect of the mainstream media pushing scares and sensationalist coverage (because this is the only thing they have a chance of selling), not some grand evil plan, but not sure.
- jancsika 7y ago
  If only the media were less sensational kids would not be under constant surveillance by the technology that HN posters are helping to develop.
- philwelch 7y ago
  In some countries like the UK, even adults are discouraged and disallowed from carrying folding knives anywhere. Scenes like this are commonplace: https://twitter.com/MPSRegentsPark/status/974645778558980096 https://twitter.com/MPSRegentsPark/status/974645778558980096
  - foldr 7y ago
    >Scenes like this are commonplace What's your basis for saying that they're commonplace? One silly tweet doesn't really show anything.
    - cardiffspaceman 7y ago
      > Scenes like this The link points to one example. The OP didn't support their assertion that constables commonly confiscate screwdrivers during weapons sweeps, but I don't think OP intended the picture prove that, just to show the definition of "weapon" in use.
      - foldr 7y ago
        The picture doesn't show the definition of 'weapon' in common use, as it's an isolated example.
JoBrad 7y ago
I agree that it is way over-the-top. Counterpoint to your conditioning point: kids tend to rebel against oversight, and will probably include this in the list of things they reject.
- basilgohar 7y ago
  I think this is a gross over-exaggeration. While it is not uncommon for kids to rebel against, for example, their parents at a certain and whatnot, I think this is different than saying that the majority of kids will do it. The public school system functions as a major conditioning environment to get children used to the norms of society, including deference to authority, following rules, and other things that are generally accepted as good. This is the ideal time for those things to happen because of how pliable the young mind still is. However, we must be very careful how constrained we make such environments and the idea that safety is guaranteed by subjecting kids to what is effectively zero privacy means we've traded, yet again, liberty for security, thus relinquishing the effective right to both. This will be as effective at rooting out violence in schools as bombing 3rd world villages has been in rooting out terrorism. Until the underlying issues are addressed (mental health, social disparities, racial divides, etc.) the kettle will continue boiling over and more-and-more unpredictable and chaotic ways.
- shadowgovt 7y ago
  Or they will observe the world doesn't burn down around them with this level of surveillance in place and will come to find it normal. Which may very well be fine; perhaps it's a useful normal.
  - Mirioron 7y ago
    The problem is that it's very difficult to see the far-reaching consequences of policy that affects entire generations. People in the 1800s observed that using fossil fuels in abundance doesn't burn down the world around them, but we know now that that's not really true.
  - homonculus1 7y ago
    The world won't burn down, they'll just slowly and quietly lose their freedom over the course of decades. They might not even notice, since it will happen invisibly through self-censorship and implied consequences. The very idea of freedom will seem useless in their own hands and frightening in others'. Control will be centralized liberalism will give way to fear. Everything will keep moving, but the people will not be in control of their own rule.
entropea 7y ago
>and it’s conditioning future generations to accept this level of surveillance as adults. They will absolutely never be free of surveillance in a modern society, whether private or by government, anyway. Might as well get them used to it. They will always have devices on them that track everything they do. Society is beyond caring about privacy. Having toys and convenience is much more exciting. Hopefully they're also conditioning future generations to become docile slaves of their workplaces.
goodluckchuck 7y ago
Yep, just like these school-shooter drills, training children to be afraid of boogie men in hopes that they'll vote accordingly once they turn 18.
moscaclem 7y ago
Once we all get old enough this will just be the crazy ramblings and no one will care. What the children are told and believe is true is what will be the truth. Once we're all dead this won't even be an issue. Maybe your old enough to remember a time when you could walk away and live somewhere without anyone from your old life being able to find you...I'm not. Maybe you remember when "everyone" 15+ didn't have a constant connection to the internet or at least the police....I'm not. Maybe you remember being able to go places alone as a child... I don't. I remember being able to break school rules (running in the hall) and evade punishment because there was no way to prove it... these kids will not. My great grandparents remember a time when going to another country didn't require the permission of your home country, when leaving your country meant you weren't a part of it anymore... I'd bet you do not. --Edit (added conclusion)-- It seems like with each generation we become used to a little less freedom and a little more control. A little more comfort and a little less connection with the non man made world. Maybe this is how it's always been. Maybe it's just another by product of the agricultural revolution drawing us all closer together.
- kickopotomus 7y ago
  > It seems like with each generation we become used to a little less freedom and a little more control. This has probably been true to a certain extent ever since we began organizing into tribes. However, I would put forward that even if you aggregate all of the liberty concessions humankind has made for the last few millennia, it would pale in comparison to the supreme control afforded by technological improvements of the last 20 years.
  - sreatyugr 7y ago
    Yes things certainly are moving faster then ever before. I do quite wonder where it is were going
    - t-writescode 7y ago
      Bad places. But no one will care, because as long as you’re a good little obedient humming bee that doesn’t make noise outside the status quo, you will be safe and fine and ignored. Fahrenheit 451 is a view of that future.

by t34543 7y ago

Ididntdothis 7y ago

They probably won’t even feel safe without it.

mywittyname 7y ago
From what I've heard of students, the surveillance they are under is a constant reminder that they are "not safe". People are just now starting to study what should have always been obvious: that active shooter drills are traumatic to students [1]. These topics are much easier to tackle than the real issues effecting students. [1] https://www.npr.org/2019/11/10/778015261/experts-worry-active-shooter-drills-in-schools-could-be-traumatic-for-students https://www.npr.org/2019/11/10/778015261/experts-worry-activ...
- nabnob 7y ago
  I remember seeing a post on reddit from a school teacher describing the active shooter training they received from a local police department. Apparently it just turned into an opportunity for the police to berate and shout at the teachers and students.
  - mrguyorama 7y ago
    Police training other people per-supposes that the police officers of the United States are well trained. If they are not, then the training they provide will be even worse
- asdff 7y ago
  Who would have thought being told to corral like cattle under a table to rehearse waiting for rapid fire death wouldn't inspire much confidence.

ptero 7y ago

Agreed. And I wonder if the answer would be different if they asked parents instead of kids (who remember having regular, metal knives at school cafeterias; being able to bring a folding knife to school; etc.). It seems to me that that public acceptance of such surveillance is a side effect of the mainstream media pushing scares and sensationalist coverage (because this is the only thing they have a chance of selling), not some grand evil plan, but not sure.

jancsika 7y ago
If only the media were less sensational kids would not be under constant surveillance by the technology that HN posters are helping to develop.
philwelch 7y ago
In some countries like the UK, even adults are discouraged and disallowed from carrying folding knives anywhere. Scenes like this are commonplace: https://twitter.com/MPSRegentsPark/status/974645778558980096 https://twitter.com/MPSRegentsPark/status/974645778558980096
- foldr 7y ago
  >Scenes like this are commonplace What's your basis for saying that they're commonplace? One silly tweet doesn't really show anything.
  - cardiffspaceman 7y ago
    > Scenes like this The link points to one example. The OP didn't support their assertion that constables commonly confiscate screwdrivers during weapons sweeps, but I don't think OP intended the picture prove that, just to show the definition of "weapon" in use.
    - foldr 7y ago
      The picture doesn't show the definition of 'weapon' in common use, as it's an isolated example.

JoBrad 7y ago

I agree that it is way over-the-top. Counterpoint to your conditioning point: kids tend to rebel against oversight, and will probably include this in the list of things they reject.

basilgohar 7y ago
I think this is a gross over-exaggeration. While it is not uncommon for kids to rebel against, for example, their parents at a certain and whatnot, I think this is different than saying that the majority of kids will do it. The public school system functions as a major conditioning environment to get children used to the norms of society, including deference to authority, following rules, and other things that are generally accepted as good. This is the ideal time for those things to happen because of how pliable the young mind still is. However, we must be very careful how constrained we make such environments and the idea that safety is guaranteed by subjecting kids to what is effectively zero privacy means we've traded, yet again, liberty for security, thus relinquishing the effective right to both. This will be as effective at rooting out violence in schools as bombing 3rd world villages has been in rooting out terrorism. Until the underlying issues are addressed (mental health, social disparities, racial divides, etc.) the kettle will continue boiling over and more-and-more unpredictable and chaotic ways.
shadowgovt 7y ago
Or they will observe the world doesn't burn down around them with this level of surveillance in place and will come to find it normal. Which may very well be fine; perhaps it's a useful normal.
- Mirioron 7y ago
  The problem is that it's very difficult to see the far-reaching consequences of policy that affects entire generations. People in the 1800s observed that using fossil fuels in abundance doesn't burn down the world around them, but we know now that that's not really true.
- homonculus1 7y ago
  The world won't burn down, they'll just slowly and quietly lose their freedom over the course of decades. They might not even notice, since it will happen invisibly through self-censorship and implied consequences. The very idea of freedom will seem useless in their own hands and frightening in others'. Control will be centralized liberalism will give way to fear. Everything will keep moving, but the people will not be in control of their own rule.

entropea 7y ago

>and it’s conditioning future generations to accept this level of surveillance as adults. They will absolutely never be free of surveillance in a modern society, whether private or by government, anyway. Might as well get them used to it. They will always have devices on them that track everything they do. Society is beyond caring about privacy. Having toys and convenience is much more exciting. Hopefully they're also conditioning future generations to become docile slaves of their workplaces.

goodluckchuck 7y ago

Yep, just like these school-shooter drills, training children to be afraid of boogie men in hopes that they'll vote accordingly once they turn 18.

moscaclem 7y ago

Once we all get old enough this will just be the crazy ramblings and no one will care. What the children are told and believe is true is what will be the truth. Once we're all dead this won't even be an issue. Maybe your old enough to remember a time when you could walk away and live somewhere without anyone from your old life being able to find you...I'm not. Maybe you remember when "everyone" 15+ didn't have a constant connection to the internet or at least the police....I'm not. Maybe you remember being able to go places alone as a child... I don't. I remember being able to break school rules (running in the hall) and evade punishment because there was no way to prove it... these kids will not. My great grandparents remember a time when going to another country didn't require the permission of your home country, when leaving your country meant you weren't a part of it anymore... I'd bet you do not. --Edit (added conclusion)-- It seems like with each generation we become used to a little less freedom and a little more control. A little more comfort and a little less connection with the non man made world. Maybe this is how it's always been. Maybe it's just another by product of the agricultural revolution drawing us all closer together.

kickopotomus 7y ago
> It seems like with each generation we become used to a little less freedom and a little more control. This has probably been true to a certain extent ever since we began organizing into tribes. However, I would put forward that even if you aggregate all of the liberty concessions humankind has made for the last few millennia, it would pale in comparison to the supreme control afforded by technological improvements of the last 20 years.
- sreatyugr 7y ago
  Yes things certainly are moving faster then ever before. I do quite wonder where it is were going
  - t-writescode 7y ago
    Bad places. But no one will care, because as long as you’re a good little obedient humming bee that doesn’t make noise outside the status quo, you will be safe and fine and ignored. Fahrenheit 451 is a view of that future.