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The entire ecosystem running on iOS/OS X. This is exclusive on Apple produced hardware, which effectively forms a single relevant market as you cannot easily su

The entire ecosystem running on iOS/OS X. This is exclusive on Apple produced hardware, which effectively forms a single relevant market as you cannot easily substitute this with others even if there's a small but significant and non-transitory increase in price. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_but_significant_and_non-transitory_increase_in_price https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_but_significant_and_non-...

scarface74 7y ago
So is that how you define monopoly now? Does that make all of the console makers monopolies over their platforms? Does that mean that Apple also has a “monopoly on voice assistants that can be used with AirPods”? Does it also have a monopoly on apps that can be run on the “HomePods”? Does every smart TV manufacturer with their own OS also have a “monopoly” on their ecosystem? Let’s go further down the rabbit hole. Does Tesla have a “monopoly” on software that can run on its cars? If non insignificant switching costs defines a “monopoly” every software as a service app would have a “monopoly”. Unfortunately, neither the EU or the US has ever defined “monopoly” like HN posters...
- summerlight 7y ago
  This is not how I defined a monopoly, but a well established practice done by DoJ of the US. Defining a relevant market is not that clear and simple as you described, but it's more of an economical, data-driven process. Look up for hypothetical monopolist test. I just explained one possible scenario how this could be defined as a relevant market and you're now throwing a bunch of random assumptions on my comment. I would read the link thoroughly (it explicitly mentions DoJ?) and study more on the history of the antitrust law and its applications before doing such.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    So if it “well defined” by the DOJ, you should be able to find a specific example where a minority vertically integrated platform vendor was declared a “monopoly” and specific remediation steps were enforced. Not a Wikipedia article. If that were the case, every single console maker since the mid 80s would be declared a monopoly. Why hasn’t that happened?
    - summerlight 7y ago
      > you should be able to find a specific example where a minority vertically integrated platform vendor was declared a “monopoly” and specific remediation steps were enforced. I already told you that the market defining process is a very case-specific one and big techs now are unprecedented. Why are you trying to find applicable prior arts on such cases? You asked how Apple can be monopoly on a market and I gave you one possibility which may or may not materialize due to its uncertain and complex nature. It's pretty hard to understand why you're being so defensive on this issue? > If that were the case, every single console maker since the mid 80s would be declared a monopoly. Why hasn’t that happened? There has been multiple antitrust lawsuits and investigations on Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft for their gaming consoles while their exercise of monopolistic power was nowhere comparable to Apple's nowadays. Why don't you google just 2~3 words before making such a false claim?
      - scarface74 7y ago
        I already told you that the market defining process is a very case-specific one and big techs now are unprecedented. Why are you trying to find applicable prior arts on such cases? Maybe because I don’t believe that people can randomly make up definitions instead of citing precedent? There has been multiple antitrust lawsuits and investigations on Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft for their gaming consoles while their exercise of monopolistic power was nowhere comparable to Apple's nowadays. Why don't you google just 2~3 words before making such a false claim? Well seeing that Nintendo specifically has been very strict about what was allowed on its platform, forced third parties to use its manufacturing facilities since the 80s, forced all software whether distributed physically or virtually to be licensed and to pay a fee and had a much larger marketshare, where was the government intervention? Where were the consent decrees? Lawsuits? Please provide one citation where any of the console manufacturers were ever forced to change their business practices? If my claim is “false”, you should easily be able to find a citation.
        summerlight 7y ago
        > Maybe because I don’t believe that people can randomly make up definitions instead of citing precedent? While you're trying to frame my argument as "make up definitions", the reality is not; this is a standard practice since 1982. Spend your time on searching and studying the topic, not mine. This is an area of vast complexities and I don't think it's effective to spend my time to enlighten you. https://www.justice.gov/atr/operationalizing-hypothetical-monopolist-test https://www.justice.gov/atr/operationalizing-hypothetical-mo... > where was the government intervention? Where were the consent decrees? Lawsuits? Your ignorant in the topic doesn't necessarily mean an actual lack of a prior. In Nintendo v. Atari case, there was not much arguments on the market definition, but its practice was illegal or not. Yes, I've been talking only about the market definition and you're intentionally conflating the concept of the relevant market definition and antitrust violation. Don't do that. And please don't even try to say "come up with evidence". You can spend your time on studying this.

scarface74 7y ago

So is that how you define monopoly now? Does that make all of the console makers monopolies over their platforms? Does that mean that Apple also has a “monopoly on voice assistants that can be used with AirPods”? Does it also have a monopoly on apps that can be run on the “HomePods”? Does every smart TV manufacturer with their own OS also have a “monopoly” on their ecosystem? Let’s go further down the rabbit hole. Does Tesla have a “monopoly” on software that can run on its cars? If non insignificant switching costs defines a “monopoly” every software as a service app would have a “monopoly”. Unfortunately, neither the EU or the US has ever defined “monopoly” like HN posters...

summerlight 7y ago
This is not how I defined a monopoly, but a well established practice done by DoJ of the US. Defining a relevant market is not that clear and simple as you described, but it's more of an economical, data-driven process. Look up for hypothetical monopolist test. I just explained one possible scenario how this could be defined as a relevant market and you're now throwing a bunch of random assumptions on my comment. I would read the link thoroughly (it explicitly mentions DoJ?) and study more on the history of the antitrust law and its applications before doing such.
- scarface74 7y ago
  So if it “well defined” by the DOJ, you should be able to find a specific example where a minority vertically integrated platform vendor was declared a “monopoly” and specific remediation steps were enforced. Not a Wikipedia article. If that were the case, every single console maker since the mid 80s would be declared a monopoly. Why hasn’t that happened?
  - summerlight 7y ago
    > you should be able to find a specific example where a minority vertically integrated platform vendor was declared a “monopoly” and specific remediation steps were enforced. I already told you that the market defining process is a very case-specific one and big techs now are unprecedented. Why are you trying to find applicable prior arts on such cases? You asked how Apple can be monopoly on a market and I gave you one possibility which may or may not materialize due to its uncertain and complex nature. It's pretty hard to understand why you're being so defensive on this issue? > If that were the case, every single console maker since the mid 80s would be declared a monopoly. Why hasn’t that happened? There has been multiple antitrust lawsuits and investigations on Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft for their gaming consoles while their exercise of monopolistic power was nowhere comparable to Apple's nowadays. Why don't you google just 2~3 words before making such a false claim?
    - scarface74 7y ago
      I already told you that the market defining process is a very case-specific one and big techs now are unprecedented. Why are you trying to find applicable prior arts on such cases? Maybe because I don’t believe that people can randomly make up definitions instead of citing precedent? There has been multiple antitrust lawsuits and investigations on Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft for their gaming consoles while their exercise of monopolistic power was nowhere comparable to Apple's nowadays. Why don't you google just 2~3 words before making such a false claim? Well seeing that Nintendo specifically has been very strict about what was allowed on its platform, forced third parties to use its manufacturing facilities since the 80s, forced all software whether distributed physically or virtually to be licensed and to pay a fee and had a much larger marketshare, where was the government intervention? Where were the consent decrees? Lawsuits? Please provide one citation where any of the console manufacturers were ever forced to change their business practices? If my claim is “false”, you should easily be able to find a citation.
      - summerlight 7y ago
        > Maybe because I don’t believe that people can randomly make up definitions instead of citing precedent? While you're trying to frame my argument as "make up definitions", the reality is not; this is a standard practice since 1982. Spend your time on searching and studying the topic, not mine. This is an area of vast complexities and I don't think it's effective to spend my time to enlighten you. https://www.justice.gov/atr/operationalizing-hypothetical-monopolist-test https://www.justice.gov/atr/operationalizing-hypothetical-mo... > where was the government intervention? Where were the consent decrees? Lawsuits? Your ignorant in the topic doesn't necessarily mean an actual lack of a prior. In Nintendo v. Atari case, there was not much arguments on the market definition, but its practice was illegal or not. Yes, I've been talking only about the market definition and you're intentionally conflating the concept of the relevant market definition and antitrust violation. Don't do that. And please don't even try to say "come up with evidence". You can spend your time on studying this.