5 ms·

Today I can buy a t-shirt for less than an hour at minimum wage (in the USA). The reality is that the loom, for as amazing as it is, is only a small piece of w

Today I can buy a t-shirt for less than an hour at minimum wage (in the USA). The reality is that the loom, for as amazing as it is, is only a small piece of why that item costs so little. Tunic, possibly wool or linen. Both of these items still come at a massive premium today when compared to a cotton or a synthetic. We have made changes and massive progress in the production of the base materials. We have transport issues, it is unlikely that your typical tunic was an imported good. It was probably made and sourced much more locally. Today, due to the nature of production and the structure of tax and tariffs on garments it is likely that your t-shirt is fairly well traveled, with it crossing the ocean more than once (cotton to Asia, woven in one place, made into a garment in another, possibly printed on in a third before even making it to you). There is a LOT more to the story, sewing machines, zippers (YKK is a fascinating company), elastic, pattern making, fabric cutting. The boxes that your products are shipped in, cardboard and steel, the packaging plastic - the inks for it. Dye is a whole field of science and research that has made so much progress in the last 50 years never mind going as far back as a "tunic". The point is there is a massive iceberg under that loom, one you barely see or think about.

Spooky23 7y ago
You talking undershirt or an actual tshirt? That’s disposable clothing at that price. The miracle of textiles is an artifact of the past. In order to make the insane supply chain make sense, the product is cheapened to the minimum viable level. Most of what happens today is financial engineering. My old ring-spun champion sweatshirts from the 80s:90s are a much better and cheaper product than most stuff on the market today. All made (farmed, spun and sewn) by US labor in South Carolina or New York.
- ctdonath 7y ago
  Actual t-shirt. Not uncommon under $5, sometimes $1, at Walmart. Yes clothing can be disposably priced if you search a bit.
- zer00eyz 7y ago
  JC penny printed t-shirts $6 us. But, to your point, they are "terrible". You can still find high quality fabrics that have been turned into garments but it is rare and costly. I, as someone who is tall, am mostly locked out of these markets. Interestingly however I am more often then not forced to buy more expensive and better formal items (suits in particular).
  - Jamwinner 7y ago
    Those markets for quality textiles are often now, as they were then, bespoke. Your height is just more fabric.
- zeta0134 7y ago
  Decent t-shirts can be had at most department stores for around $10 where I live. Minimum wage here is around $7ish. It's not quite an hour after taxes, but it's comfortably two hours of labor per shirt. Sometimes a lot more if you can score a good deal at a discount outlet store. Granted, you can also buy very cheap quality shirts at Wal-Mart for around that price, but those won't survive much longer than a year with regular wear and washes.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  Undershirts are much cheaper; at least the last ones I bought were like 6 for a few dollars.
- hogFeast 7y ago
  You can pick them up in bulk from a wholesaler for under $2/3 a shirt (that is premium ringspun). Tbh, if you get from a decent supplier then the quality is usually fine. I am not sure why there is a stigma around non-US products. A lot of third-world countries have very skilled labour. And most of the "US-branded" t-shirts today are of very variable quality...but that is the only product these days for certainty that your clothes weren't made by a child.
- baroffoos 7y ago
  >That’s disposable clothing at that price. I have not found price to have much basis on the lifetime of a tshirt. The design/mass production of the design seems to be most of the cost. You can buy a high quality tshirt for very cheap its just the same design has been sold 500,000 times already.
- mopsi 7y ago
  I bought a 5-pack of T-shirts from ASOS in April, they go through the washing machine weekly (low temp, hang dried) and are still perfectly wearable. Nothing particularly eye-catching, but don't fall apart either. The price was $6.72 per shirt and the same pack is currently on sale for $4.27 per shirt. Based on previous experience, I expect them to last around 100-120 washes. Worn every other week, this translates to 4-5 years.
- Bayart 7y ago
  Well, there are still very high quality t-shirts being made. Namely Velva Sheen in the US and Merz b. Schwanen in Germany. There do cost the same as a proper shirt.
lsc 7y ago
Interestingly, I haven't found pants that I like that are manufactured in the recent era, even with a reasonably large budget, compared to a laborer. (though I guess thatching is moderately skilled labor, so maybe you would compare it to my computer-technician work?) I love my old Australian army surplus wool cargo slacks; manufactured in the early '50s, I can only find them on ebay. They are super nice; the wool is harsher than smartwool (and they need dry cleaning) but they are super comfortable, and come with a pocket for my reading device. The pockets are lined with thick, heavy cotton that keep stuff from falling out way better than the polyester of most modern wool slacks, and they don't have the lining that most modern wool slacks have, either. (I.. have issues with the feel of a lot of kinds of polyester against my skin, especially when sweating, and most of the wool slacks I've seen have polyester linings down the front to change the way the pants hang or soemthing) and these pants are about a thousand times better in the rain than cotton pants. But I don't think this is primarily the cost of the wool: Contrast this with shirts, where I can buy a really nice modern wool blend shirt for about a day or maybe day and a half of minimum wage, one that has all the moisture management and skin feel properties of wool but that holds up in the dryer pretty okay. I mean, I guess the same company makes some nice tights which make great undergarments for a Californian visiting a place that snows, so the problem is actually, I guess, that I'm unwilling to go out in public in tights without pants over them, and I live in a place where pants over tights is just too warm.
- lostlogin 7y ago
  Army surplus energy cargo pants that need dry cleaning? I assume these are dress uniform or something?
  - lsc 7y ago
    most wool pants are dry clean only. I actually don't know anything about the actual context of these pants when in use. https://go-armynavy.com/military-surplus/collectibles/australian/australian-military-wool-pants.html https://go-armynavy.com/military-surplus/collectibles/austra... (I'm not vouching for that vendor, but I'm pretty sure that's what I've got. I got mine from ebay)
dredmorbius 7y ago
I've recently become an instant fan of Bernadette Banner, historical clothing recrations specialist, with video and Pinterest channels. In a piece I'd submitted to HN a few days ago, she discussed the matter of a cheap Chinese knock-off of a 15th century gown. Somehow an item made of wool-blend, silk, and other fabrics, constructed over 250 hours, was being sold for $40.98. Short-cuts were taken. Aside from a host of other aspects (ownership of ideas, fraud, misappropriation of likeness, etc.), the segment is a tour de force of textile and garment techniques and technologies. As is virtually all of Ms. Banner's video archive. I've virtually no interest in the topic itself, though I'm somewhat aware of the historical significance of clothing technology and its role in the Industrial Revolution. She herself is must-watch Web-V, based on knowledge, wit, charm, diction, geek-out nerdiness, and sheer enthusiasm for her topic. In the dozen or so videos I've watched to date, she covers many of the elements you describe (possibly excepting zippers). In overall impact, I'd compare her work with Primitive Technology. Much of the framing is different, but the end result, someone captivated by and exceedingly competent in what they're doing, sharing it with the world, is quite similar. https://invidio.us/watch?v=J80J4oaGVnY https://invidio.us/watch?v=J80J4oaGVnY
- HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
  This one? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21611950 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21611950 BTW, I notice that you also have an interest in printing. Don't know if you've ever taken a class in it, but I did (semester-long "Introduction to Printmaking" at a local art school at night) and it was an amazing experience. I was way outclassed by everyone else who knew at least how to draw, paint, etc, but I still had a lot of fun learning about various printing techniques, types of paper, etc.
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    Yes. I have numerous interests. There is a madness to the method, I swear! (Or vice versa.) History of print and media is a somewhat recent interest, though I've had numerous relevant prior experiences. Little by way of formal instruction.

Spooky23 7y ago

You talking undershirt or an actual tshirt? That’s disposable clothing at that price. The miracle of textiles is an artifact of the past. In order to make the insane supply chain make sense, the product is cheapened to the minimum viable level. Most of what happens today is financial engineering. My old ring-spun champion sweatshirts from the 80s:90s are a much better and cheaper product than most stuff on the market today. All made (farmed, spun and sewn) by US labor in South Carolina or New York.

ctdonath 7y ago
Actual t-shirt. Not uncommon under $5, sometimes $1, at Walmart. Yes clothing can be disposably priced if you search a bit.
zer00eyz 7y ago
JC penny printed t-shirts $6 us. But, to your point, they are "terrible". You can still find high quality fabrics that have been turned into garments but it is rare and costly. I, as someone who is tall, am mostly locked out of these markets. Interestingly however I am more often then not forced to buy more expensive and better formal items (suits in particular).
- Jamwinner 7y ago
  Those markets for quality textiles are often now, as they were then, bespoke. Your height is just more fabric.
zeta0134 7y ago
Decent t-shirts can be had at most department stores for around $10 where I live. Minimum wage here is around $7ish. It's not quite an hour after taxes, but it's comfortably two hours of labor per shirt. Sometimes a lot more if you can score a good deal at a discount outlet store. Granted, you can also buy very cheap quality shirts at Wal-Mart for around that price, but those won't survive much longer than a year with regular wear and washes.
perl4ever 7y ago
Undershirts are much cheaper; at least the last ones I bought were like 6 for a few dollars.
hogFeast 7y ago
You can pick them up in bulk from a wholesaler for under $2/3 a shirt (that is premium ringspun). Tbh, if you get from a decent supplier then the quality is usually fine. I am not sure why there is a stigma around non-US products. A lot of third-world countries have very skilled labour. And most of the "US-branded" t-shirts today are of very variable quality...but that is the only product these days for certainty that your clothes weren't made by a child.
baroffoos 7y ago
>That’s disposable clothing at that price. I have not found price to have much basis on the lifetime of a tshirt. The design/mass production of the design seems to be most of the cost. You can buy a high quality tshirt for very cheap its just the same design has been sold 500,000 times already.
mopsi 7y ago
I bought a 5-pack of T-shirts from ASOS in April, they go through the washing machine weekly (low temp, hang dried) and are still perfectly wearable. Nothing particularly eye-catching, but don't fall apart either. The price was $6.72 per shirt and the same pack is currently on sale for $4.27 per shirt. Based on previous experience, I expect them to last around 100-120 washes. Worn every other week, this translates to 4-5 years.
Bayart 7y ago
Well, there are still very high quality t-shirts being made. Namely Velva Sheen in the US and Merz b. Schwanen in Germany. There do cost the same as a proper shirt.

lsc 7y ago

Interestingly, I haven't found pants that I like that are manufactured in the recent era, even with a reasonably large budget, compared to a laborer. (though I guess thatching is moderately skilled labor, so maybe you would compare it to my computer-technician work?) I love my old Australian army surplus wool cargo slacks; manufactured in the early '50s, I can only find them on ebay. They are super nice; the wool is harsher than smartwool (and they need dry cleaning) but they are super comfortable, and come with a pocket for my reading device. The pockets are lined with thick, heavy cotton that keep stuff from falling out way better than the polyester of most modern wool slacks, and they don't have the lining that most modern wool slacks have, either. (I.. have issues with the feel of a lot of kinds of polyester against my skin, especially when sweating, and most of the wool slacks I've seen have polyester linings down the front to change the way the pants hang or soemthing) and these pants are about a thousand times better in the rain than cotton pants. But I don't think this is primarily the cost of the wool: Contrast this with shirts, where I can buy a really nice modern wool blend shirt for about a day or maybe day and a half of minimum wage, one that has all the moisture management and skin feel properties of wool but that holds up in the dryer pretty okay. I mean, I guess the same company makes some nice tights which make great undergarments for a Californian visiting a place that snows, so the problem is actually, I guess, that I'm unwilling to go out in public in tights without pants over them, and I live in a place where pants over tights is just too warm.

lostlogin 7y ago
Army surplus energy cargo pants that need dry cleaning? I assume these are dress uniform or something?
- lsc 7y ago
  most wool pants are dry clean only. I actually don't know anything about the actual context of these pants when in use. https://go-armynavy.com/military-surplus/collectibles/australian/australian-military-wool-pants.html https://go-armynavy.com/military-surplus/collectibles/austra... (I'm not vouching for that vendor, but I'm pretty sure that's what I've got. I got mine from ebay)

dredmorbius 7y ago

I've recently become an instant fan of Bernadette Banner, historical clothing recrations specialist, with video and Pinterest channels. In a piece I'd submitted to HN a few days ago, she discussed the matter of a cheap Chinese knock-off of a 15th century gown. Somehow an item made of wool-blend, silk, and other fabrics, constructed over 250 hours, was being sold for $40.98. Short-cuts were taken. Aside from a host of other aspects (ownership of ideas, fraud, misappropriation of likeness, etc.), the segment is a tour de force of textile and garment techniques and technologies. As is virtually all of Ms. Banner's video archive. I've virtually no interest in the topic itself, though I'm somewhat aware of the historical significance of clothing technology and its role in the Industrial Revolution. She herself is must-watch Web-V, based on knowledge, wit, charm, diction, geek-out nerdiness, and sheer enthusiasm for her topic. In the dozen or so videos I've watched to date, she covers many of the elements you describe (possibly excepting zippers). In overall impact, I'd compare her work with Primitive Technology. Much of the framing is different, but the end result, someone captivated by and exceedingly competent in what they're doing, sharing it with the world, is quite similar. https://invidio.us/watch?v=J80J4oaGVnY https://invidio.us/watch?v=J80J4oaGVnY

HeyLaughingBoy 7y ago
This one? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21611950 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21611950 BTW, I notice that you also have an interest in printing. Don't know if you've ever taken a class in it, but I did (semester-long "Introduction to Printmaking" at a local art school at night) and it was an amazing experience. I was way outclassed by everyone else who knew at least how to draw, paint, etc, but I still had a lot of fun learning about various printing techniques, types of paper, etc.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Yes. I have numerous interests. There is a madness to the method, I swear! (Or vice versa.) History of print and media is a somewhat recent interest, though I've had numerous relevant prior experiences. Little by way of formal instruction.