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Ukraine liberalized its economy and it pretty much destroyed the place. The whole GDP growth fetish is a lot of horse shit; some measure needs to be taken that

Ukraine liberalized its economy and it pretty much destroyed the place. The whole GDP growth fetish is a lot of horse shit; some measure needs to be taken that the increase in GDP doesn't destroy the lives of some large swathe of the population like it did in Russia. Belarus may be led by a repressive dictator, but the fact that it didn't experience the absurd declines in life expectancy and quality of life in the 90s that Russia did will keep him popular, even if they do have to pay more for oil.

sodosopa 7y ago
> Ukraine liberalized its economy and it pretty much destroyed the place. The Russian invasion destroyed the place.
- NaggingGranpa 7y ago
  Don't be thick. A handful of oligarchs seizing all the wealth created by Soviet "slave" labor and sharing very little did destroy Ukraine long before the loonies in Lviv decided to overthrow the shameless crook from the Donbas.
  - sodosopa 7y ago
    > Overthrow Oh you mean the invading Russian forces. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/08/02/russian-disinformation-distorted-reality-in-ukraine-americans-should-take-note-putin-mueller-elections-antisemitism/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/08/02/russian-disinformation-... > By the next morning, soldiers in unmarked uniforms had taken the Crimean parliament and raised the Russian flag. Throughout the day, the little green men—as the irregular Russian soldiers came to be known—fanned out across the city, capturing government buildings. Soon, behind closed doors and under Russian guns, the autonomous region’s parliament voted to request Russian security assistance.
    - NaggingGranpa 7y ago
      Utterly irrelevant. Your point was that Ukraine's economic problems are due to the Russian invasion, which is false. Losing the Donbas may have made things a bit worse, but Ukraine was an economic basketcase since the collapse of the USSR and it remains one.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
rayiner 7y ago
Ukraine is listed as “mostly unfree” in the listing above, so no.
- scottlocklin 7y ago
  I don't care what those jackasses say: the only thing they haven't sold off at this point is agricultural land, and the lizard men in the State Department are trying their hardest to loot this as well.
- EGreg 7y ago
  Ok so let’s look at the countries highest on the Economic Freedom index. Hong Kong tops the list right? It has what you would expect... Capital has flowed in and normally that would have pushed blue collar workers and children and elderly out, with people commuting 2 hours each way as in SF. But since these are islands, the poor live in coffin like shoebox apartments, far smaller than anything allowed in US cities. Millions form entire communities of poverty around there, raise children there etc. How large an effect are we talking? 20% of Hong Kong is below the poverty line. I did the math and any four people below the poverty line cannot together afford a studio apartment in normal areas of Hong Kong. Hong Kong has had to aggressively increase its welfare and safety nets. It has over 40 public hospitals and 20 private ones. Suffice it to say that around the world, government-run and single-payer healthcare and schooling has been compatible with high scores on economic freedom. It’s only in the USA do we have this ridiculous fearmongering about that. Hong Kong has, in many measures, a very strong safety net and strong public sector. Ditto for Singapore etc. And larger countries in Scandinavia, and Canada and Australia etc. are similar. Much of the centrally coordinated infrastructure investment has paid off - in the US we had the interstate highway system, China lifted more people out of poverty in 20 years through centrally planned “ghost cities” than any place on Earth ever, and the USSR did a great job of increasing literacy, electricity, bringing universities, rights to women and minorities, to countries like Uzbekistan and that whole region. Child mortality declined greatly, as people got better access to healthcare. Not to say that everything is black and white, but “economic freedom” and capitalism isn’t the only way science and technology and prosperity moves forward.
  - 7y ago
tasubotadas 7y ago
Did you miss the bit about corruption in Ukraine?
- scottlocklin 7y ago
  Gee, I wonder why Belarus doesn't have this problem?
- scottlocklin 7y ago
  Gee, I wonder why Belarus doesn't have this problem? I do business in Ukraine; I'm well aware of conditions on the ground there.
  - tasubotadas 7y ago
    Belarus is a craphole because they have a dictator who only cares about farming. But/thus he isn't afraid of dealing with criminals. Ukraine is a craphole because of corruption not because it liberalized.
    - scottlocklin 7y ago
      Belarus, as the article clearly states, unlike Ukraine, isn't a craphole at all. Saying "muh corruption" isn't an argument. Russia had a problem with corruption as well until they elected a patriotic strong man who got it under control to the point where oligarchs were no longer fighting pitched gun battles in Moscow. What's your plan for dealing with neoliberal induced corruption in Ukaine?
      - AzzieElbab 7y ago
        Seriously? No corruption in Russia since FSB officers have themselves become oligarchs? Or was there another point?
        scottlocklin 7y ago
        I love the point and sputter. I said, Putin got corruption under control to the point where oligarchs (none of whom were or are FSB agents) are not fighting pitched street battles in Moscow. As a result their GDP, unlike Ukraine's, is doing fairly well. They even have a GINI index better than in the US. Imagine that! Do you have a plan for fixing Ukraine's corruption under the neoliberal looter regime the US put in place there?
papito 7y ago
Ukraine did not "liberalize" it. The economy was destroyed by "privatization", which effectively meant giving away state resources to those already with money and power - the former Communist class and criminals. It was planned post-Soviet chaos, and chaos attracts grifters and opportunists. The regular people down in the trenches had no clue that they were being robbed blind.

sodosopa 7y ago

> Ukraine liberalized its economy and it pretty much destroyed the place. The Russian invasion destroyed the place.

NaggingGranpa 7y ago
Don't be thick. A handful of oligarchs seizing all the wealth created by Soviet "slave" labor and sharing very little did destroy Ukraine long before the loonies in Lviv decided to overthrow the shameless crook from the Donbas.
- sodosopa 7y ago
  > Overthrow Oh you mean the invading Russian forces. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/08/02/russian-disinformation-distorted-reality-in-ukraine-americans-should-take-note-putin-mueller-elections-antisemitism/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/08/02/russian-disinformation-... > By the next morning, soldiers in unmarked uniforms had taken the Crimean parliament and raised the Russian flag. Throughout the day, the little green men—as the irregular Russian soldiers came to be known—fanned out across the city, capturing government buildings. Soon, behind closed doors and under Russian guns, the autonomous region’s parliament voted to request Russian security assistance.
  - NaggingGranpa 7y ago
    Utterly irrelevant. Your point was that Ukraine's economic problems are due to the Russian invasion, which is false. Losing the Donbas may have made things a bit worse, but Ukraine was an economic basketcase since the collapse of the USSR and it remains one.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

rayiner 7y ago

Ukraine is listed as “mostly unfree” in the listing above, so no.

scottlocklin 7y ago
I don't care what those jackasses say: the only thing they haven't sold off at this point is agricultural land, and the lizard men in the State Department are trying their hardest to loot this as well.
EGreg 7y ago
Ok so let’s look at the countries highest on the Economic Freedom index. Hong Kong tops the list right? It has what you would expect... Capital has flowed in and normally that would have pushed blue collar workers and children and elderly out, with people commuting 2 hours each way as in SF. But since these are islands, the poor live in coffin like shoebox apartments, far smaller than anything allowed in US cities. Millions form entire communities of poverty around there, raise children there etc. How large an effect are we talking? 20% of Hong Kong is below the poverty line. I did the math and any four people below the poverty line cannot together afford a studio apartment in normal areas of Hong Kong. Hong Kong has had to aggressively increase its welfare and safety nets. It has over 40 public hospitals and 20 private ones. Suffice it to say that around the world, government-run and single-payer healthcare and schooling has been compatible with high scores on economic freedom. It’s only in the USA do we have this ridiculous fearmongering about that. Hong Kong has, in many measures, a very strong safety net and strong public sector. Ditto for Singapore etc. And larger countries in Scandinavia, and Canada and Australia etc. are similar. Much of the centrally coordinated infrastructure investment has paid off - in the US we had the interstate highway system, China lifted more people out of poverty in 20 years through centrally planned “ghost cities” than any place on Earth ever, and the USSR did a great job of increasing literacy, electricity, bringing universities, rights to women and minorities, to countries like Uzbekistan and that whole region. Child mortality declined greatly, as people got better access to healthcare. Not to say that everything is black and white, but “economic freedom” and capitalism isn’t the only way science and technology and prosperity moves forward.
- 7y ago

tasubotadas 7y ago

Did you miss the bit about corruption in Ukraine?

scottlocklin 7y ago
Gee, I wonder why Belarus doesn't have this problem?
scottlocklin 7y ago
Gee, I wonder why Belarus doesn't have this problem? I do business in Ukraine; I'm well aware of conditions on the ground there.
- tasubotadas 7y ago
  Belarus is a craphole because they have a dictator who only cares about farming. But/thus he isn't afraid of dealing with criminals. Ukraine is a craphole because of corruption not because it liberalized.
  - scottlocklin 7y ago
    Belarus, as the article clearly states, unlike Ukraine, isn't a craphole at all. Saying "muh corruption" isn't an argument. Russia had a problem with corruption as well until they elected a patriotic strong man who got it under control to the point where oligarchs were no longer fighting pitched gun battles in Moscow. What's your plan for dealing with neoliberal induced corruption in Ukaine?
    - AzzieElbab 7y ago
      Seriously? No corruption in Russia since FSB officers have themselves become oligarchs? Or was there another point?
      - scottlocklin 7y ago
        I love the point and sputter. I said, Putin got corruption under control to the point where oligarchs (none of whom were or are FSB agents) are not fighting pitched street battles in Moscow. As a result their GDP, unlike Ukraine's, is doing fairly well. They even have a GINI index better than in the US. Imagine that! Do you have a plan for fixing Ukraine's corruption under the neoliberal looter regime the US put in place there?

papito 7y ago

Ukraine did not "liberalize" it. The economy was destroyed by "privatization", which effectively meant giving away state resources to those already with money and power - the former Communist class and criminals. It was planned post-Soviet chaos, and chaos attracts grifters and opportunists. The regular people down in the trenches had no clue that they were being robbed blind.