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> “But I’m not a shareholder!” A surprising amount of Americans are shareholders in large financial institutions. Do you have an IRA? Does it invest in e.g. mut

> “But I’m not a shareholder!” A surprising amount of Americans are shareholders in large financial institutions. Do you have an IRA? Does it invest in e.g. mutual funds? If you own a mutual fund or index fund, you are highly likely to beneficially own fractional shares of US financial institutions. Someone who owns 0.01 shares is a shareholder; welcome to the magic of capitalism. I like this guy. He has great insight, this is very well put :D

Tenoke 7y ago
It seems wrong though - I am not an American, but if you e.g. own shares in an ETF (or mutual fund), you just own shares in the ETF while they own the shares in the underlying assets. I am not even sure if there's a legal definition of shareholder, but assuming that there is, I suspect this doesn't cut it and you are simply a stakeholder instead. Feel free to link to relevant materials, if that's not the case.
- OscarCunningham 7y ago
  Legally, people make distinctions between different kinds of ownership. So you can be the "beneficial owner" without being the "registed owner". In fact every public US stock is owned first by Cede and Company. Any public stock you own is a contract with them (via intermediaries). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cede_and_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cede_and_Company
  - Tenoke 7y ago
    As far as I understand, Cede's contractual rights make it so you are pretty close to 'owning' the stock compared to ETF/Mutual Fund. >So you can be the "beneficial owner" without being the "registed owner". Are you the 'beneficial owner' of an ETF's invested assets or just of the ETF instead?
    - TheCoelacanth 7y ago
      You are the registered owner of the ETF, but the beneficial owner of the underlying shares.
      - anonu 7y ago
        Not correct. If you own an ETF you do not have voting rights of the underlying stocks. So you are not a beneficial owner of the underlying. You also do not have "direct" access to the dividends. The fund manager will pool the dividends and pay them out on a regular schedule, after taking their cut of fees.
        TheCoelacanth 7y ago
        The IRS defines "beneficial owner" as "the person who is required under U.S. tax principles to include the payment in gross income on a tax return"[1]. Using that definition, you certainly would be a beneficial owner regardless of whether you can directly exercise voting rights or directly receive dividends. The indirectness is the whole point of the distinction between beneficial and registered owners. [1] https://www.irs.gov/instructions/iw8ben#idm140376280574400 https://www.irs.gov/instructions/iw8ben#idm140376280574400
        Tenoke 7y ago
        But you don't need to write every stock the Mutual Fund invested in - just the Mutual Fund itself, so this makes it even clearer.
- bearbin 7y ago
  By that logic, nobody is a shareholder at all, thanks to the magic of Cede and Co. [1] The only real owners are the holders of the physical stock certificates - and almost nobody does this in real life for numerous reasons. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cede_and_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cede_and_Company
- FabHK 7y ago
  A pretty good criterion would be, I presume, whether you vote your shares for the election of the board of directors. If you vote, you're definitely a shareholder.
leipert 7y ago
Ha. My dad has an account at cooperative bank (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksbanken_und_Raiffeisenbanken https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksbanken_und_Raiffeisenbank...) and every time he has business at the bank, he says: "You know, I am a co-owner of this bank". Usually the personnel is confused by this.
- paulcole 7y ago
  They probably hear that dozens of times a day.
  - whatshisface 7y ago
    If they did, wouldn't they not be confused by it?
    - paulcole 7y ago
      Being polite to a customer.
aguyfromnb 7y ago
>I like this guy. He has great insight I'm sure customer service people and healthcare professionals love people coming on premises and throwing their weight around with exaggerations and half-truths. The people I know would put you on the bottom of the list.
- lolc 7y ago
  You're lacking context. It says that when you don't know where to send correspondence at big banks you could try and address investor relations because they are usually bored and will gladly forward your complaint to the right department. This is where the investor part comes in. And only there. Other suggestions are that you could address the legal department because they are diligent by law. Or the CEO, because if it gets handed down from their office it will have more weight. Note that the cases talked about involve legal deadlines so knowingly delaying to handle them is not a good option.
  - aguyfromnb 7y ago
    >Note that the cases talked about involve legal deadlines so knowingly delaying to handle them is not a good option. Are we reading the same thread? The cases talked about are mundane customer service interactions. My significant other works in consumer facing healthcare. Every day customers come in proclaiming they "know the owner" or "are a lawyer" or "will take their business elsewhere", expecting to be prioritized. This isn't some clever life-hack; the people who do it are, in my opinion, jerks.
    - lolc 7y ago
      I'm talking about the article linked in the comment upthread which is about identity theft. Where in that article or the thread was it suggested to refer to yourself as a shareholder to customer service? It's only ever mentioned as a reason to contact investor relations. The author specifically recommends against grandstanding exactly because it signals "not a professional". So I really don't get your complaint.
- dqv 7y ago
anonu 7y ago
I think a surprising amount of Americans are invested in the stock market. But that does not make them shareholders in us companies. Most of this exposure is through "40 act" funds like mutual funds and ETFs where investors in these funds do not have the underlying vote of the stocks the fund is invested in.
ryandrake 7y ago
It's actually about half and half. About 45% of Americans don't own any stock whatsoever, either directly or indirectly through IRAs, mutual funds, ETFs, etc. [1] 1: https://news.gallup.com/poll/266807/percentage-americans-owns-stock.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/266807/percentage-americans-own...

Tenoke 7y ago

It seems wrong though - I am not an American, but if you e.g. own shares in an ETF (or mutual fund), you just own shares in the ETF while they own the shares in the underlying assets. I am not even sure if there's a legal definition of shareholder, but assuming that there is, I suspect this doesn't cut it and you are simply a stakeholder instead. Feel free to link to relevant materials, if that's not the case.

OscarCunningham 7y ago
Legally, people make distinctions between different kinds of ownership. So you can be the "beneficial owner" without being the "registed owner". In fact every public US stock is owned first by Cede and Company. Any public stock you own is a contract with them (via intermediaries). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cede_and_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cede_and_Company
- Tenoke 7y ago
  As far as I understand, Cede's contractual rights make it so you are pretty close to 'owning' the stock compared to ETF/Mutual Fund. >So you can be the "beneficial owner" without being the "registed owner". Are you the 'beneficial owner' of an ETF's invested assets or just of the ETF instead?
  - TheCoelacanth 7y ago
    You are the registered owner of the ETF, but the beneficial owner of the underlying shares.
    - anonu 7y ago
      Not correct. If you own an ETF you do not have voting rights of the underlying stocks. So you are not a beneficial owner of the underlying. You also do not have "direct" access to the dividends. The fund manager will pool the dividends and pay them out on a regular schedule, after taking their cut of fees.
      - TheCoelacanth 7y ago
        The IRS defines "beneficial owner" as "the person who is required under U.S. tax principles to include the payment in gross income on a tax return"[1]. Using that definition, you certainly would be a beneficial owner regardless of whether you can directly exercise voting rights or directly receive dividends. The indirectness is the whole point of the distinction between beneficial and registered owners. [1] https://www.irs.gov/instructions/iw8ben#idm140376280574400 https://www.irs.gov/instructions/iw8ben#idm140376280574400
        Tenoke 7y ago
        But you don't need to write every stock the Mutual Fund invested in - just the Mutual Fund itself, so this makes it even clearer.
bearbin 7y ago
By that logic, nobody is a shareholder at all, thanks to the magic of Cede and Co. [1] The only real owners are the holders of the physical stock certificates - and almost nobody does this in real life for numerous reasons. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cede_and_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cede_and_Company
FabHK 7y ago
A pretty good criterion would be, I presume, whether you vote your shares for the election of the board of directors. If you vote, you're definitely a shareholder.

leipert 7y ago

Ha. My dad has an account at cooperative bank (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksbanken_und_Raiffeisenbanken https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksbanken_und_Raiffeisenbank...) and every time he has business at the bank, he says: "You know, I am a co-owner of this bank". Usually the personnel is confused by this.

paulcole 7y ago
They probably hear that dozens of times a day.
- whatshisface 7y ago
  If they did, wouldn't they not be confused by it?
  - paulcole 7y ago
    Being polite to a customer.

aguyfromnb 7y ago

>I like this guy. He has great insight I'm sure customer service people and healthcare professionals love people coming on premises and throwing their weight around with exaggerations and half-truths. The people I know would put you on the bottom of the list.

lolc 7y ago
You're lacking context. It says that when you don't know where to send correspondence at big banks you could try and address investor relations because they are usually bored and will gladly forward your complaint to the right department. This is where the investor part comes in. And only there. Other suggestions are that you could address the legal department because they are diligent by law. Or the CEO, because if it gets handed down from their office it will have more weight. Note that the cases talked about involve legal deadlines so knowingly delaying to handle them is not a good option.
- aguyfromnb 7y ago
  >Note that the cases talked about involve legal deadlines so knowingly delaying to handle them is not a good option. Are we reading the same thread? The cases talked about are mundane customer service interactions. My significant other works in consumer facing healthcare. Every day customers come in proclaiming they "know the owner" or "are a lawyer" or "will take their business elsewhere", expecting to be prioritized. This isn't some clever life-hack; the people who do it are, in my opinion, jerks.
  - lolc 7y ago
    I'm talking about the article linked in the comment upthread which is about identity theft. Where in that article or the thread was it suggested to refer to yourself as a shareholder to customer service? It's only ever mentioned as a reason to contact investor relations. The author specifically recommends against grandstanding exactly because it signals "not a professional". So I really don't get your complaint.
dqv 7y ago

anonu 7y ago

I think a surprising amount of Americans are invested in the stock market. But that does not make them shareholders in us companies. Most of this exposure is through "40 act" funds like mutual funds and ETFs where investors in these funds do not have the underlying vote of the stocks the fund is invested in.

ryandrake 7y ago

It's actually about half and half. About 45% of Americans don't own any stock whatsoever, either directly or indirectly through IRAs, mutual funds, ETFs, etc. [1] 1: https://news.gallup.com/poll/266807/percentage-americans-owns-stock.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/266807/percentage-americans-own...