4 ms·

The goal is noble, but Urbit is destined to become a case study in the dangers of isolation and obstinacy. This project has gone so deep into its own inner san

The goal is noble, but Urbit is destined to become a case study in the dangers of isolation and obstinacy. This project has gone so deep into its own inner sanctum that they've lost tabs on wider reality. While the result may have glimmers of technical excellence for brave souls to excavate some day, the impact of the juxtaposition between latent expertise and overwhelming derangement is enough to scare away (literally scare away) basically everyone. This style of issuing a large corpus of dicta that comprise "the One True Way" never works, not even in actual bona fide religion. Systems and protocols that last are built iteratively by collaborators across institutions, each piece finding immediate utility as it's integrated and deployed. The big question around Urbit is not whether it will succeed -- rather, it's whether Yarvin will appreciate that he's rapidly disproved the nascent brand of proto-monarchist philosophy Urbit was meant to realize. [0] See also: Pontormo at San Lorenzo [1], Xanadu [2] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Enlightenment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Enlightenment [1] https://blog.garrytan.com/always-be-shipping-a-lesson-from-jacopo-da-po https://blog.garrytan.com/always-be-shipping-a-lesson-from-j... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Xanadu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Xanadu

nabla9 7y ago
>the One True Way" never works, It works for Apple.
- cookiecaper 7y ago
  Apple doesn't have a One True Way -- they have a relatively-simple and relatively-uniform product line that represents their interpretation of human-computer interaction. They focused on building systems that everyone could use and love immediately, and it turns out that a lot of people appreciate that emphatic commitment to the human over the machine. Jobs insisted on elegance and simplicity throughout, creating products that were instantly loved and admired, products that people would be proud to own and display. Technobabble was worthless to him and he did everything possible to keep it away from his customers. He expected his engineers to deliver something decent and real and trusted them to figure out the details, focusing exclusively on the vision of shipping usable, beautiful products that provided immediate value to every user, regardless of technical background. Steve Jobs's devotion to elegance resulted in products so appealing and downright seductive that they fundamentally changed the public's expectations from computers and consumer electronics generally -- not just once (Mac), not just twice (iPod), but at least three times (iPhone; honorable mention: NeXT/OS X). We lost him too soon. Meanwhile, in Yarvin via Urbit, we are offered a ground-floor rate of only $512 per placard in The One True E-fief. Urbit is here to show us that they know best. That we'd be better off if we'd just raise our eyes out of the mud long enough to recognize our obvious inferiority, take our oaths of fealty, pay our taxes, and some day, when They've decided the time is Right, They'll bestow upon us The One True Network. There could not be a starker contrast.
  - asjw 7y ago
    We haven't lost him out of misfortune, as many other things he made horribly wrong and nobody talks about anymore, because, you know, survival bias, he also thought cancer could be cured with diets. He was man that even his daughter despise for being inhuman with his own flesh and blood, for denying she was her child for years. Having interacted with Apple users since 1984, the only common trait they have is exactly believing there is only one true way, not that their way is better thanks to the sum of well though technical factors, but because it's a faith, that, as any other faith, is impenetrable to critics and doubts. The fact that the failure of Next is still told as a great success speaks volumes. Another famous example is the Apple III, costed a fortune to build, sold poorly and the people who worked at it remember that "The Apple III was designed by a committee headed by Steve Jobs, who would demand one thing one day then the opposite the next." Jobs built a cult, not a technical revolution.
    - robenkleene 7y ago
      > The fact that the failure of Next is still told as a great success speaks volumes. NeXT resulted in the web browser and the iPhone.
- toyg 7y ago
  Only because they explicitly refuse to solve a large amount of problems, focusing narrowly on certain profitable ones.
  - dbtx 7y ago
    I hear that their more satisfied customers cheerfully instruct the others to adjust their expectations and habits and to buy the insurance.
- cocktailpeanuts 7y ago
  Apple has "Many little true ways" which integrate beautifully into people's existing lives. Completely opposite from what Urbit is trying to do, which is to dictate that their "one way" shall rule over humans in every aspect, and shall replace everything else that came before. This is not only arrogant, but stupid approach to building things if you want to get adoption. To build things for the people, you should try your best to integrate into the existing world, not to replace the world itself. Urbit is literally the opposite of Apple.
- moomin 7y ago
  Really? Last time I checked Apple had folded on the whole issue of having native apps on their phones. Adapt and embrace has worked _very_ well for Apple.
jeen02 7y ago
I couldn't even get through the introduction without repeatedly rolling my eyes at the narcissism scattered throughout it.
dessant 7y ago
> If you wake up in the desert, unsure how you got there, you’ll be fine so long as you remember your Urbit ID and passkey. https://urbit.org/understanding-urbit/urbit-id/ https://urbit.org/understanding-urbit/urbit-id/
Hitton 7y ago
Bollocks. Yarvin left Urbit nearly a year ago. https://urbit.org/blog/a-founders-farewell/ https://urbit.org/blog/a-founders-farewell/
Jd 7y ago
My sense is that the project started in its inner sanctum and has been iterating gradually towards something that can be understood and used. It actually can be explained simply: Cross platform deployed VMs with their own primitives that also have the ability to network with each other via a custom protocol. That's interesting and potentially very valuable. Keep in mind this whole Hacker News and Ycombinator paradigm is effectively an outworking of the same process. Some savant Lisper with their own dialect making in a unique way that over time was re-coded and made more accessible.

nabla9 7y ago

>the One True Way" never works, It works for Apple.

cookiecaper 7y ago
Apple doesn't have a One True Way -- they have a relatively-simple and relatively-uniform product line that represents their interpretation of human-computer interaction. They focused on building systems that everyone could use and love immediately, and it turns out that a lot of people appreciate that emphatic commitment to the human over the machine. Jobs insisted on elegance and simplicity throughout, creating products that were instantly loved and admired, products that people would be proud to own and display. Technobabble was worthless to him and he did everything possible to keep it away from his customers. He expected his engineers to deliver something decent and real and trusted them to figure out the details, focusing exclusively on the vision of shipping usable, beautiful products that provided immediate value to every user, regardless of technical background. Steve Jobs's devotion to elegance resulted in products so appealing and downright seductive that they fundamentally changed the public's expectations from computers and consumer electronics generally -- not just once (Mac), not just twice (iPod), but at least three times (iPhone; honorable mention: NeXT/OS X). We lost him too soon. Meanwhile, in Yarvin via Urbit, we are offered a ground-floor rate of only $512 per placard in The One True E-fief. Urbit is here to show us that they know best. That we'd be better off if we'd just raise our eyes out of the mud long enough to recognize our obvious inferiority, take our oaths of fealty, pay our taxes, and some day, when They've decided the time is Right, They'll bestow upon us The One True Network. There could not be a starker contrast.
- asjw 7y ago
  We haven't lost him out of misfortune, as many other things he made horribly wrong and nobody talks about anymore, because, you know, survival bias, he also thought cancer could be cured with diets. He was man that even his daughter despise for being inhuman with his own flesh and blood, for denying she was her child for years. Having interacted with Apple users since 1984, the only common trait they have is exactly believing there is only one true way, not that their way is better thanks to the sum of well though technical factors, but because it's a faith, that, as any other faith, is impenetrable to critics and doubts. The fact that the failure of Next is still told as a great success speaks volumes. Another famous example is the Apple III, costed a fortune to build, sold poorly and the people who worked at it remember that "The Apple III was designed by a committee headed by Steve Jobs, who would demand one thing one day then the opposite the next." Jobs built a cult, not a technical revolution.
  - robenkleene 7y ago
    > The fact that the failure of Next is still told as a great success speaks volumes. NeXT resulted in the web browser and the iPhone.
toyg 7y ago
Only because they explicitly refuse to solve a large amount of problems, focusing narrowly on certain profitable ones.
- dbtx 7y ago
  I hear that their more satisfied customers cheerfully instruct the others to adjust their expectations and habits and to buy the insurance.
cocktailpeanuts 7y ago
Apple has "Many little true ways" which integrate beautifully into people's existing lives. Completely opposite from what Urbit is trying to do, which is to dictate that their "one way" shall rule over humans in every aspect, and shall replace everything else that came before. This is not only arrogant, but stupid approach to building things if you want to get adoption. To build things for the people, you should try your best to integrate into the existing world, not to replace the world itself. Urbit is literally the opposite of Apple.
moomin 7y ago
Really? Last time I checked Apple had folded on the whole issue of having native apps on their phones. Adapt and embrace has worked _very_ well for Apple.

jeen02 7y ago

I couldn't even get through the introduction without repeatedly rolling my eyes at the narcissism scattered throughout it.

dessant 7y ago

> If you wake up in the desert, unsure how you got there, you’ll be fine so long as you remember your Urbit ID and passkey. https://urbit.org/understanding-urbit/urbit-id/ https://urbit.org/understanding-urbit/urbit-id/

Hitton 7y ago

Bollocks. Yarvin left Urbit nearly a year ago. https://urbit.org/blog/a-founders-farewell/ https://urbit.org/blog/a-founders-farewell/

Jd 7y ago

My sense is that the project started in its inner sanctum and has been iterating gradually towards something that can be understood and used. It actually can be explained simply: Cross platform deployed VMs with their own primitives that also have the ability to network with each other via a custom protocol. That's interesting and potentially very valuable. Keep in mind this whole Hacker News and Ycombinator paradigm is effectively an outworking of the same process. Some savant Lisper with their own dialect making in a unique way that over time was re-coded and made more accessible.