4 ms·

I'm always confused by statements like "a republic, not a democracy." These words don't have clear, practical meanings. Words like republicanism, democracy, li

by netcan 7y ago

I'm always confused by statements like "a republic, not a democracy." These words don't have clear, practical meanings. Words like republicanism, democracy, liberal democracy, democratic republic, etc are pretty abstract... and they were a lot more abstract 250 years ago. No nation state today is a "direct democracy," afaik. All of them are "representative democracies" with a congress/parliament. You can call that system a democracy, republic or whatever. Point taken about the historical (and current) reasons for federalism. That said, I don't see how/why redrawing states, electorates, changing how voting works, congress works or such has any bearing on a "democracy or republic" question. If you're into European history during the reformations/schisms, people of that period were obsessed with extremely abstract, theology/epistemology. Eucharistic metaphysics seemed important to them att, in retrospect it seems (literally) meaningless.

jakeogh 7y ago
Republic, in the sense that we do not use majority rule; as it's inherently less stable and easier to break and cant protect inalienable rights and equal protection.
- netcan 7y ago
  Ok... take non-republics with similar political cultures: Australia, UK Canada... You will find very similar "we do not use majority rule." they have states/state-like governments. Senates (for state reps), and lower houses (for district reps). There are some differences at the symbolic sovereignty level (queens, governor general's, etc.) Where does their lack of "unrepublic" differ to the US' republic, at the point where their voting, counting majorities, etc.
  - jakeogh 7y ago
    Aus has no free speech. UK is a class system where only one class gets to perserve life with effective tools. They dont due have process. Got stabbed? Here's a mandatory class: https://dailycaller.com/2019/07/01/london-bridge-hero-deradicalization/ https://dailycaller.com/2019/07/01/london-bridge-hero-deradi...
smsm42 7y ago
> These words don't have clear, practical meanings. They do. They mean in the US, not everything is decided by simple majority of votes of everybody living in the federated republic. Rather, there are more complex power structures where different states (note they are named states, not electoral districts or census areas) retain significant sovereignty not subject to either federal control or that of other states. It is very practical thing without which it is impossible to understand how US politics works. > All of them are "representative democracies" with a congress/parliament. Yes, but the USA is not that either. Or, rather, not only that. People thinking it's only that misunderstand how things are. > has any bearing on a "democracy or republic" question. Imagine there's a town where mayor decides to redistribute people between families to optimize housing arrangement - so if you have too many kids, your kid is going to me moved to a family with no kids, and if you live alone, you may be assigned a partner to live with you. For efficiency. Let's even assume this all done by proper vote of the city council and all legal formalities are in place. Would you think it's an important change which totally changes your opinion about what's going on in the city and how it is ruled, or it's a minor adjustment that is of interest only to philosophy geeks dwelling on deep meanings of abstractions? If you can appreciate answer to that question, you probably also can appreciate why "democracy or republic" is not as abstract a question as you think.
- netcan 7y ago
  What "everything is decided by simple majority of votes" mean. The only things that are usually decided by voting are the people elected to various positions. Some systems (eg us electorates) elect by district, political unit (eg us states), parties (eg netherlands), ethnic affiliation (eg Lebanon)... All these are typically known as democratic voting, democratically elected parliaments/governments, presidents, etc. In The context of "spreading democracy" these systems are/were generally known as "liberal democracies." "More complex power structures" where different states/polities act as units have their political powers reserved are generally called federalism. You can have democracy/republic with or without federation. Nothing about republic implies federalism, except that they both apply to the US. Historically, "republic," has generally been used to mean kingless nation and "liberal" to highlight mean that the people "are sovereign." Highly overlapping. Republic means something in this context, but not what people mean when they contrast to democracy. "Republic" or "democracy" are much more laden with ideal & philosophy connotations than anything concrete enough to be part of a system of government. It's like the words "rational" and "logical." Sure, you can say "in a US context.. " but that gets meaningless fast. You can't derive any meaning from "The US is republic" are synonyms. You could just say "this is the US."
ekianjo 7y ago
> I'm always confused by statements like "a republic, not a democracy." These words don't have clear, practical meanings. Erm, they do. A democracy is "just anything goes along as more than 50% of voters approve of it" (and you can end up with fascism this way if you don't pay attention), while a Republic puts a central document (in the US the Constitution) as the supreme guide that even voters will have a very hard time to change by themselves.
- the_why_of_y 7y ago
  Merely having a constitution and being a republic is in no way sufficient to prevent such outcomes; see for example the end of the Weimar Republic, substantially expedited by its own constitution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_48_(Weimar_Constitution) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_48_(Weimar_Constitutio...
daveFNbuck 7y ago
> I'm always confused by statements like "a republic, not a democracy." You're clipping the idea too short to maintain its meaning here. Let's look at what was actually said > the US has never been built as a direct democratic system. It's a Republic. The key word you've missed here is "direct". People say that the US is a republic and not a direct democracy. These have clear meanings. A (democratic) republic has elected representatives while a direct democracy puts everything up to a popular vote. This is the key feature people are distinguishing, electing representatives versus putting all decisions directly up for voting by citizens. The meaning only gets lost when people try to use this idea to smuggle in other related ideas like voting power in national elections being based on geography. That's a specific choice, not a necessary feature of a republican form of government.

by netcan 7y ago

jakeogh 7y ago

Republic, in the sense that we do not use majority rule; as it's inherently less stable and easier to break and cant protect inalienable rights and equal protection.

netcan 7y ago
Ok... take non-republics with similar political cultures: Australia, UK Canada... You will find very similar "we do not use majority rule." they have states/state-like governments. Senates (for state reps), and lower houses (for district reps). There are some differences at the symbolic sovereignty level (queens, governor general's, etc.) Where does their lack of "unrepublic" differ to the US' republic, at the point where their voting, counting majorities, etc.
- jakeogh 7y ago
  Aus has no free speech. UK is a class system where only one class gets to perserve life with effective tools. They dont due have process. Got stabbed? Here's a mandatory class: https://dailycaller.com/2019/07/01/london-bridge-hero-deradicalization/ https://dailycaller.com/2019/07/01/london-bridge-hero-deradi...

smsm42 7y ago

> These words don't have clear, practical meanings. They do. They mean in the US, not everything is decided by simple majority of votes of everybody living in the federated republic. Rather, there are more complex power structures where different states (note they are named states, not electoral districts or census areas) retain significant sovereignty not subject to either federal control or that of other states. It is very practical thing without which it is impossible to understand how US politics works. > All of them are "representative democracies" with a congress/parliament. Yes, but the USA is not that either. Or, rather, not only that. People thinking it's only that misunderstand how things are. > has any bearing on a "democracy or republic" question. Imagine there's a town where mayor decides to redistribute people between families to optimize housing arrangement - so if you have too many kids, your kid is going to me moved to a family with no kids, and if you live alone, you may be assigned a partner to live with you. For efficiency. Let's even assume this all done by proper vote of the city council and all legal formalities are in place. Would you think it's an important change which totally changes your opinion about what's going on in the city and how it is ruled, or it's a minor adjustment that is of interest only to philosophy geeks dwelling on deep meanings of abstractions? If you can appreciate answer to that question, you probably also can appreciate why "democracy or republic" is not as abstract a question as you think.

netcan 7y ago
What "everything is decided by simple majority of votes" mean. The only things that are usually decided by voting are the people elected to various positions. Some systems (eg us electorates) elect by district, political unit (eg us states), parties (eg netherlands), ethnic affiliation (eg Lebanon)... All these are typically known as democratic voting, democratically elected parliaments/governments, presidents, etc. In The context of "spreading democracy" these systems are/were generally known as "liberal democracies." "More complex power structures" where different states/polities act as units have their political powers reserved are generally called federalism. You can have democracy/republic with or without federation. Nothing about republic implies federalism, except that they both apply to the US. Historically, "republic," has generally been used to mean kingless nation and "liberal" to highlight mean that the people "are sovereign." Highly overlapping. Republic means something in this context, but not what people mean when they contrast to democracy. "Republic" or "democracy" are much more laden with ideal & philosophy connotations than anything concrete enough to be part of a system of government. It's like the words "rational" and "logical." Sure, you can say "in a US context.. " but that gets meaningless fast. You can't derive any meaning from "The US is republic" are synonyms. You could just say "this is the US."

ekianjo 7y ago

> I'm always confused by statements like "a republic, not a democracy." These words don't have clear, practical meanings. Erm, they do. A democracy is "just anything goes along as more than 50% of voters approve of it" (and you can end up with fascism this way if you don't pay attention), while a Republic puts a central document (in the US the Constitution) as the supreme guide that even voters will have a very hard time to change by themselves.

the_why_of_y 7y ago
Merely having a constitution and being a republic is in no way sufficient to prevent such outcomes; see for example the end of the Weimar Republic, substantially expedited by its own constitution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_48_(Weimar_Constitution) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_48_(Weimar_Constitutio...

daveFNbuck 7y ago

> I'm always confused by statements like "a republic, not a democracy." You're clipping the idea too short to maintain its meaning here. Let's look at what was actually said > the US has never been built as a direct democratic system. It's a Republic. The key word you've missed here is "direct". People say that the US is a republic and not a direct democracy. These have clear meanings. A (democratic) republic has elected representatives while a direct democracy puts everything up to a popular vote. This is the key feature people are distinguishing, electing representatives versus putting all decisions directly up for voting by citizens. The meaning only gets lost when people try to use this idea to smuggle in other related ideas like voting power in national elections being based on geography. That's a specific choice, not a necessary feature of a republican form of government.