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We have been able to teach them to do trivial tricks on demand, but we can't teach them to be productive members of society. We haven't even been able to teach

We have been able to teach them to do trivial tricks on demand, but we can't teach them to be productive members of society. We haven't even been able to teach a single other species to do factory work, which is the simplest work imaginable for humans.

ianai 7y ago
Dogsledding? Horse riding? People routinely being carried by their horse to help after being incapacitated. Dogs herding all sorts of livestock. I read recently of tool use outside of the apes. I’ve seen blue jays bury and hide things and later recollect. The list goes on and with better examples. Service dogs definitely add value to society.
- username90 7y ago
  Animals works well as tools, but they don't work independently. In all of the situations you described there are humans present to direct the work and life of the animal, something you don't need with humans. I'm not sure why we can't get them to work independently, I guess they lack the attention span or the ability to associate the work with the rewards.
  - codyb 7y ago
    I suppose the one sort of exception to this would be barn cats who sort of self domesticated themselves and became valued members of households by keeping rodents at bay. Cats also seem pretty intelligent to me.
    - ianai 7y ago
      You’re going to have a hard time finding a job without a supervisor or boss that isn’t CEO/entrepreneur/similar. Nobody should expect another species to share our concept of a capitalistic market, for that matter.
e2le 7y ago
Does this count? The Baboon That Controlled a Railway for 9 Years - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpoLkMcQh24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpoLkMcQh24 Although not factory work this Baboon was a productive member of society being paid in alcohol and a small wage.
- username90 7y ago
  It wasn't clear but did the Baboon ever do the work without James being there? I agree it is impressive, but if the monkey couldn't man the position on its own, like doing the work and only getting the beer and pay once a week and no other rewards, then I don't think it counts.
  - e2le 7y ago
    I'm not sure it matters if whether James was there or not so long as the Baboon was capable of performing the tasks without instruction from James which multiple sources appear to imply. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_(baboon) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_(baboon) https://web.archive.org/web/20160125001616/http://www.earthfoot.org/lit_zone/signalmn.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20160125001616/http://www.earthf...
    - lostmsu 7y ago
      I think this is a pretty generous interpretation given how old and random the sources are.
jbay808 7y ago
Definitely. That's why there's no such thing as a working animal. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_animal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_animal
edgyquant 7y ago
I seriously disagree that being able to take part in the human production chain or being a member of human society is the only way to determine if a creature is smart.

ianai 7y ago

Dogsledding? Horse riding? People routinely being carried by their horse to help after being incapacitated. Dogs herding all sorts of livestock. I read recently of tool use outside of the apes. I’ve seen blue jays bury and hide things and later recollect. The list goes on and with better examples. Service dogs definitely add value to society.

username90 7y ago
Animals works well as tools, but they don't work independently. In all of the situations you described there are humans present to direct the work and life of the animal, something you don't need with humans. I'm not sure why we can't get them to work independently, I guess they lack the attention span or the ability to associate the work with the rewards.
- codyb 7y ago
  I suppose the one sort of exception to this would be barn cats who sort of self domesticated themselves and became valued members of households by keeping rodents at bay. Cats also seem pretty intelligent to me.
  - ianai 7y ago
    You’re going to have a hard time finding a job without a supervisor or boss that isn’t CEO/entrepreneur/similar. Nobody should expect another species to share our concept of a capitalistic market, for that matter.

e2le 7y ago

Does this count? The Baboon That Controlled a Railway for 9 Years - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpoLkMcQh24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpoLkMcQh24 Although not factory work this Baboon was a productive member of society being paid in alcohol and a small wage.

username90 7y ago
It wasn't clear but did the Baboon ever do the work without James being there? I agree it is impressive, but if the monkey couldn't man the position on its own, like doing the work and only getting the beer and pay once a week and no other rewards, then I don't think it counts.
- e2le 7y ago
  I'm not sure it matters if whether James was there or not so long as the Baboon was capable of performing the tasks without instruction from James which multiple sources appear to imply. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_(baboon) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_(baboon) https://web.archive.org/web/20160125001616/http://www.earthfoot.org/lit_zone/signalmn.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20160125001616/http://www.earthf...
  - lostmsu 7y ago
    I think this is a pretty generous interpretation given how old and random the sources are.

jbay808 7y ago

Definitely. That's why there's no such thing as a working animal. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_animal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_animal

edgyquant 7y ago

I seriously disagree that being able to take part in the human production chain or being a member of human society is the only way to determine if a creature is smart.