7 ms·

I think it's a subconscious act of self-preservation. Truly accepting the sentience of animals would be conferring upon them a much more expansive (and expensiv

I think it's a subconscious act of self-preservation. Truly accepting the sentience of animals would be conferring upon them a much more expansive (and expensive) set of rights, which in turn would make the our society seem all the more immoral through how we treat other species. Too much cognitive dissonance.

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lostmsu 7y ago
They are sentient, alright. But quite dumb. So we grow and eat them.
- edgyquant 7y ago
  Define: dumb.
  - username90 7y ago
    We have been able to teach them to do trivial tricks on demand, but we can't teach them to be productive members of society. We haven't even been able to teach a single other species to do factory work, which is the simplest work imaginable for humans.
    - ianai 7y ago
      Dogsledding? Horse riding? People routinely being carried by their horse to help after being incapacitated. Dogs herding all sorts of livestock. I read recently of tool use outside of the apes. I’ve seen blue jays bury and hide things and later recollect. The list goes on and with better examples. Service dogs definitely add value to society.
      - username90 7y ago
        Animals works well as tools, but they don't work independently. In all of the situations you described there are humans present to direct the work and life of the animal, something you don't need with humans. I'm not sure why we can't get them to work independently, I guess they lack the attention span or the ability to associate the work with the rewards.
        codyb 7y ago
        I suppose the one sort of exception to this would be barn cats who sort of self domesticated themselves and became valued members of households by keeping rodents at bay. Cats also seem pretty intelligent to me.
        ianai 7y ago
        You’re going to have a hard time finding a job without a supervisor or boss that isn’t CEO/entrepreneur/similar. Nobody should expect another species to share our concept of a capitalistic market, for that matter.
    - e2le 7y ago
      Does this count? The Baboon That Controlled a Railway for 9 Years - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpoLkMcQh24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpoLkMcQh24 Although not factory work this Baboon was a productive member of society being paid in alcohol and a small wage.
      - username90 7y ago
        It wasn't clear but did the Baboon ever do the work without James being there? I agree it is impressive, but if the monkey couldn't man the position on its own, like doing the work and only getting the beer and pay once a week and no other rewards, then I don't think it counts.
        e2le 7y ago
        I'm not sure it matters if whether James was there or not so long as the Baboon was capable of performing the tasks without instruction from James which multiple sources appear to imply. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_(baboon) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_(baboon) https://web.archive.org/web/20160125001616/http://www.earthfoot.org/lit_zone/signalmn.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20160125001616/http://www.earthf...
        lostmsu 7y ago
        I think this is a pretty generous interpretation given how old and random the sources are.
    - jbay808 7y ago
      Definitely. That's why there's no such thing as a working animal. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_animal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_animal
    - edgyquant 7y ago
      I seriously disagree that being able to take part in the human production chain or being a member of human society is the only way to determine if a creature is smart.
  - lostmsu 7y ago
    Will never read and understand anything as complex as Humpty-Dumpty.
- dang 7y ago
  Please keep this sort of flamebait off this site. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - lostmsu 7y ago
    Sorry for taking your time as a moderator, but given that quite a few top level comments and the parent one for mine imply plays around morale by basically any person eating meat, I felt that point of view was underrepresented. By no means this was also a personal attack against anyone having enought intelligence to read it.
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lostmsu 7y ago

They are sentient, alright. But quite dumb. So we grow and eat them.

edgyquant 7y ago
Define: dumb.
- username90 7y ago
  We have been able to teach them to do trivial tricks on demand, but we can't teach them to be productive members of society. We haven't even been able to teach a single other species to do factory work, which is the simplest work imaginable for humans.
  - ianai 7y ago
    Dogsledding? Horse riding? People routinely being carried by their horse to help after being incapacitated. Dogs herding all sorts of livestock. I read recently of tool use outside of the apes. I’ve seen blue jays bury and hide things and later recollect. The list goes on and with better examples. Service dogs definitely add value to society.
    - username90 7y ago
      Animals works well as tools, but they don't work independently. In all of the situations you described there are humans present to direct the work and life of the animal, something you don't need with humans. I'm not sure why we can't get them to work independently, I guess they lack the attention span or the ability to associate the work with the rewards.
      - codyb 7y ago
        I suppose the one sort of exception to this would be barn cats who sort of self domesticated themselves and became valued members of households by keeping rodents at bay. Cats also seem pretty intelligent to me.
        ianai 7y ago
        You’re going to have a hard time finding a job without a supervisor or boss that isn’t CEO/entrepreneur/similar. Nobody should expect another species to share our concept of a capitalistic market, for that matter.
  - e2le 7y ago
    Does this count? The Baboon That Controlled a Railway for 9 Years - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpoLkMcQh24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpoLkMcQh24 Although not factory work this Baboon was a productive member of society being paid in alcohol and a small wage.
    - username90 7y ago
      It wasn't clear but did the Baboon ever do the work without James being there? I agree it is impressive, but if the monkey couldn't man the position on its own, like doing the work and only getting the beer and pay once a week and no other rewards, then I don't think it counts.
      - e2le 7y ago
        I'm not sure it matters if whether James was there or not so long as the Baboon was capable of performing the tasks without instruction from James which multiple sources appear to imply. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_(baboon) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_(baboon) https://web.archive.org/web/20160125001616/http://www.earthfoot.org/lit_zone/signalmn.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20160125001616/http://www.earthf...
        lostmsu 7y ago
        I think this is a pretty generous interpretation given how old and random the sources are.
  - jbay808 7y ago
    Definitely. That's why there's no such thing as a working animal. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_animal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_animal
  - edgyquant 7y ago
    I seriously disagree that being able to take part in the human production chain or being a member of human society is the only way to determine if a creature is smart.
- lostmsu 7y ago
  Will never read and understand anything as complex as Humpty-Dumpty.
dang 7y ago
Please keep this sort of flamebait off this site. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- lostmsu 7y ago
  Sorry for taking your time as a moderator, but given that quite a few top level comments and the parent one for mine imply plays around morale by basically any person eating meat, I felt that point of view was underrepresented. By no means this was also a personal attack against anyone having enought intelligence to read it.

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