7 ms·

The fact that the body is undentable and glass is unbreakable makes it sound worse for occupants, too. If it doesn’t crumple, you’re going to be in for a bad ti

The fact that the body is undentable and glass is unbreakable makes it sound worse for occupants, too. If it doesn’t crumple, you’re going to be in for a bad time in a car accident.

nyolfen 7y ago
presumably it must pass the same crash safety tests as every other car sold in the US
- clouddrover 7y ago
  US safety tests aren't very good in comparison to the rest of the world. In particular, US car safety tests don't emphasize the safety of pedestrians and cyclists to the same extent as the European and Australian test programs do: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyamohn/2019/10/20/starflationus-car-safety-ratings-once-best-in-the-world-now-lag-behind/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyamohn/2019/10/20/starflatio...
  - bbmario 7y ago
    Bla bla US sucks bla bla bla.
    - dang 7y ago
      Please don't post unsubstantive or flamebait comments here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - nyolfen 7y ago
    yes, that is what the article is about, but the post i was replying to was speculating that it would be less safe for occupants
  - cglace 7y ago
    It sounds like a difference in priorities and not an indictment on the tests.
    - threeseed 7y ago
      From the article which I assume you didn't read: "But the once groundbreaking program is now out of date and has not kept pace with safety innovations and advances, and other countries, including Japan and many in Europe, have far surpassed the U.S., motor vehicle safety experts say"
      - kube-system 7y ago
        We also have IIHS testing which, while unofficial, has always been at the forefront of crash testing, and is oft cited and very influential in the US.
      - cglace 7y ago
        Cool, however, it seems it's more complicated than the article lets on. This article[0] shows that cars that meet US safety standards perform better in rollover situations while EU vehicles perform better in frontal collisions. [0] https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/safety/us-european-cars-show-safety-differences-in-crashes https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/saf...
- m463 7y ago
  and remember other trucks might have crumple zones, but also cast iron engine blocks and spear-like frame rails and so forth. I think we have to wait for crash tests. (I am unaware if trucks have the same standards for crash testing)
jolmg 7y ago
I don't know why you got downvoted. It the exact same thought I had when I saw the comparison about how one door dented and the other didn't. A car that crumples will cushion the sudden stop in case of a crash.
- thatswrong0 7y ago
  Because they have to pass crash test ratings, and they'll probably want those ratings to be good. It's kind of silly to assume that a random Hacker News commenter has thought about this more than the company actually designing and making the vehicle
  - jolmg 7y ago
    I think on average people on HN don't put as much worth on appeal-to-authority arguments.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      The same is true for anti-vaxxers tho... Obviously the truck is going to pass safety tests. Having a soft exterior that gives-in is not all there is to car safety...
      - jolmg 7y ago
        Alright, here's an authority on the matter that also has doubts about the exterior[1]: > [safety standards] may be something the Tesla Cybertruck needs to put more focus on, according to the head of the Australasian New Car Assessment Program, which is Australia's equivalent of the US-based Insurance Institute for Highway Safety > Cybertruck's "exoskeleton" body material caused some alarm as well. ANCAP looks for vehicles to absorb some of the energy in an impact because, if it doesn't, passengers will bear the brunt of the force. > While this material may be perfect to keep out dents ... it could put passengers at risk. By the way, > Having a soft exterior that gives-in is not all there is to car safety... I totally agree[1]: > Obviously, the Cybertruck cannot enter production in its current form. It's missing windshield wipers, traditional mirrors that are, right now, required for the US market and the pickup also lacks turn signals. The challenge will be turning this trapezoidal design into something approved for sale in markets around the world [1] https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-cybertruck-design-safety/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-cybertruck-design-s...
newnewpdro 7y ago
It's still sheet metal, it's going to crumple in a collision with another vehicle. The only thing they demonstrated is that it doesn't dent easily when hit by a sledge hammer swung horizontally.
- jolmg 7y ago
  The way they presented it as an exoskeleton design though, implies that the it's much tougher on the outside than other vehicles.
  - newnewpdro 7y ago
    It's bad news for pedestrians, but I expect it to fare very well in crash tests. Side-impact tests in particular will benefit from the stronger door skin. There's not much space for crumpling in that direction, and your average mild-steel door doesn't do particularly well. They generally throw reinforcement beams inside the door in an effort to help. It will be interesting to see how this plays out since the Cybertruck is combining unibody+skateboard+pickup+stainless steel. The frunk is a huge crumple zone with no ICE and transmission to get in the way. I don't see the stainless steel "exoskeleton" preventing the frunk from crumpling in a real crash. It might prevent getting dents from stupid people in parking lots and utility work though. The partial overlap frontal collision has been an especially bad one for pickups historically IIRC. This vehicle might completely change that. Would love to hear from anyone more knowledgeable in this field. https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/03/21/iihs-gm-toyota-pickup-truck-safety/3221070002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/03/21/iihs-gm...
  - notatoad 7y ago
    Most vehicles are "exoskeleton" design, normally called "body on frame". It's really just pickup trucks that are stuck on the old chassis design. The cybertruck isn't really any more innovative than the Honda Ridgeline in this regard.
    - inferiorhuman 7y ago
      Most vehicles are "exoskeleton" design, normally called "body on frame". It's really just pickup trucks that are stuck on the old chassis design. Trucks and old cars are body on frame, modern cars and some small trucks (e.g. Ridgeline, Baja, Brat, El Camino, Ranchero, most utes) are unibody. Some like the original Jeep Cherokee are hybrids.
ninjinxo 7y ago
The other car is the crumple zone
- sdenton4 7y ago
  Works great until the first cyber truck on cyber truck accident...
  - antonvs 7y ago
    Known in the industry as a homoteslaccident
  - symplee 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irresistible_force_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irresistible_force_paradox aka "What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?"
  - elif 7y ago
    Whoever has bagged up further will launch as if on a kicker ramp.
- willmadden 7y ago
  Hahahahaha. Seriously though, crumple zones in cars and trucks aren't the sheet metal on the body. I'm sure Tesla thought about safety ratings. My guess is the "cyber truck"'s sheet metal will crumple in an accident. A car wreck has a lot more force than some guy swinging a sledgehammer at medium force.
  - gamblor956 7y ago
    I think we're all sure that the designers thought about crumple zones. And I think we're all pretty sure that Elon overrode those designers and demanded a design and materials that wouldn't crumple.
    - zaroth 7y ago
smrr723 7y ago
It'll still crumple. There's a difference between a guy hitting the door with a sledgehammer and a vehicle driving full force into the side of the truck.
dreamcompiler 7y ago
Tesla cars don't have engine compartments, so pretty much everything forward of the driver is one giant crumple zone. I'd assume this to be true for the truck as well.
- gamblor956 7y ago
  The point of the comment you're replying to is that the Cyber Truck doesn't crumple... By design.
  - romwell 7y ago
    >Cyber Truck doesn't crumple The point of the comment you are replying to is that it would be rather unreasonable to assume that.
    - gamblor956 7y ago
      No, it is quite reasonable to assume the car is designed not to crumple (or to resist crumpling) based on Elon sayng that it was designed not to be dented. Dents are just a minor form of crumpling.
      - adamcharnock 7y ago
        I was under the impression that dents affect bodywork, and crumpling affects (/is provided by) the vehicles internal structure. I would think that makes them distinct concepts in this context.
        mohaine 7y ago
        Depends on the design of the vehicle. It would be silly to assume Tesla, which has historically created some of the safest cars it their class, would completely ignore driver safety.
      - trickstra 7y ago
        Yeah, emphasis on "minor". Try hitting a lamp.
27182818284 7y ago
Do you actually think that Tesla's engineers aren't aware of crumple zones and car safety?
- daedalus_f 7y ago
  They may be, but are they prioritizing the safety of their customers above those of other road users? Saftey for the occupants at the expense of other can be used as a marketing factor - get a Tesla truck to reduce your risk of getting killed by a Tesla truck/other truck driver. A similar situation occurred with bull bars in the UK. They protected the car they were fitted to at the expense of the person you hit. They were banned after public outcry - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bull-bars/bull-bars https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bull-bars/bull-ba...
  - vonmoltke 7y ago
    > They were banned after public outcry - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bull-bars/bull-ba.. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bull-bars/bull-ba.... Your link explicitly states they are not banned.
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      It implies that that original ones were unsafe and banned. > However, since 25 May 2007, it has been an offence for bull bars that have not been approved as compliant with those safety standards to be sold.
csomar 7y ago
> The fact that the body is undentable and glass is unbreakable makes it sound worse for occupants, too. If it doesn’t crumple, you’re going to be in for a bad time in a car accident. I think this crumple b.s. is made-up non-sense by car manufacturers (it might have minimal marginal impact and would like to be proven wrong). By making my car front bumper a weak piece of plastic that gets scratched and damaged very easily, they can sell it later for $1.000 a piece.
- lazyasciiart 7y ago
  Your bumper is not the crumple zone. It's the scratch zone.
- muzika 7y ago
  https://youtu.be/fPF4fBGNK0U https://youtu.be/fPF4fBGNK0U
bluedino 7y ago
We make items out of that same thickness stainless steel and they are very dentable
kube-system 7y ago
The door is not a crumple zone. Crumple zones should be outside of the passenger compartment. Regardless, the sledgehammer demonstration is demonstrating the result of an impact at least several orders of magnitude smaller than a vehicle accident where crumple zones are effective.

The fact that the body is undentable and glass is unbreakable makes it sound worse for occupants, too. If it doesn’t crumple, you’re going to be in for a bad time in a car accident.

nyolfen 7y ago

presumably it must pass the same crash safety tests as every other car sold in the US

clouddrover 7y ago
US safety tests aren't very good in comparison to the rest of the world. In particular, US car safety tests don't emphasize the safety of pedestrians and cyclists to the same extent as the European and Australian test programs do: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyamohn/2019/10/20/starflationus-car-safety-ratings-once-best-in-the-world-now-lag-behind/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyamohn/2019/10/20/starflatio...
- bbmario 7y ago
  Bla bla US sucks bla bla bla.
  - dang 7y ago
    Please don't post unsubstantive or flamebait comments here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- nyolfen 7y ago
  yes, that is what the article is about, but the post i was replying to was speculating that it would be less safe for occupants
- cglace 7y ago
  It sounds like a difference in priorities and not an indictment on the tests.
  - threeseed 7y ago
    From the article which I assume you didn't read: "But the once groundbreaking program is now out of date and has not kept pace with safety innovations and advances, and other countries, including Japan and many in Europe, have far surpassed the U.S., motor vehicle safety experts say"
    - kube-system 7y ago
      We also have IIHS testing which, while unofficial, has always been at the forefront of crash testing, and is oft cited and very influential in the US.
    - cglace 7y ago
      Cool, however, it seems it's more complicated than the article lets on. This article[0] shows that cars that meet US safety standards perform better in rollover situations while EU vehicles perform better in frontal collisions. [0] https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/safety/us-european-cars-show-safety-differences-in-crashes https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/saf...
m463 7y ago
and remember other trucks might have crumple zones, but also cast iron engine blocks and spear-like frame rails and so forth. I think we have to wait for crash tests. (I am unaware if trucks have the same standards for crash testing)

jolmg 7y ago

I don't know why you got downvoted. It the exact same thought I had when I saw the comparison about how one door dented and the other didn't. A car that crumples will cushion the sudden stop in case of a crash.

thatswrong0 7y ago
Because they have to pass crash test ratings, and they'll probably want those ratings to be good. It's kind of silly to assume that a random Hacker News commenter has thought about this more than the company actually designing and making the vehicle
- jolmg 7y ago
  I think on average people on HN don't put as much worth on appeal-to-authority arguments.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    The same is true for anti-vaxxers tho... Obviously the truck is going to pass safety tests. Having a soft exterior that gives-in is not all there is to car safety...
    - jolmg 7y ago
      Alright, here's an authority on the matter that also has doubts about the exterior[1]: > [safety standards] may be something the Tesla Cybertruck needs to put more focus on, according to the head of the Australasian New Car Assessment Program, which is Australia's equivalent of the US-based Insurance Institute for Highway Safety > Cybertruck's "exoskeleton" body material caused some alarm as well. ANCAP looks for vehicles to absorb some of the energy in an impact because, if it doesn't, passengers will bear the brunt of the force. > While this material may be perfect to keep out dents ... it could put passengers at risk. By the way, > Having a soft exterior that gives-in is not all there is to car safety... I totally agree[1]: > Obviously, the Cybertruck cannot enter production in its current form. It's missing windshield wipers, traditional mirrors that are, right now, required for the US market and the pickup also lacks turn signals. The challenge will be turning this trapezoidal design into something approved for sale in markets around the world [1] https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-cybertruck-design-safety/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-cybertruck-design-s...

newnewpdro 7y ago

It's still sheet metal, it's going to crumple in a collision with another vehicle. The only thing they demonstrated is that it doesn't dent easily when hit by a sledge hammer swung horizontally.

jolmg 7y ago
The way they presented it as an exoskeleton design though, implies that the it's much tougher on the outside than other vehicles.
- newnewpdro 7y ago
  It's bad news for pedestrians, but I expect it to fare very well in crash tests. Side-impact tests in particular will benefit from the stronger door skin. There's not much space for crumpling in that direction, and your average mild-steel door doesn't do particularly well. They generally throw reinforcement beams inside the door in an effort to help. It will be interesting to see how this plays out since the Cybertruck is combining unibody+skateboard+pickup+stainless steel. The frunk is a huge crumple zone with no ICE and transmission to get in the way. I don't see the stainless steel "exoskeleton" preventing the frunk from crumpling in a real crash. It might prevent getting dents from stupid people in parking lots and utility work though. The partial overlap frontal collision has been an especially bad one for pickups historically IIRC. This vehicle might completely change that. Would love to hear from anyone more knowledgeable in this field. https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/03/21/iihs-gm-toyota-pickup-truck-safety/3221070002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/03/21/iihs-gm...
- notatoad 7y ago
  Most vehicles are "exoskeleton" design, normally called "body on frame". It's really just pickup trucks that are stuck on the old chassis design. The cybertruck isn't really any more innovative than the Honda Ridgeline in this regard.
  - inferiorhuman 7y ago
    Most vehicles are "exoskeleton" design, normally called "body on frame". It's really just pickup trucks that are stuck on the old chassis design. Trucks and old cars are body on frame, modern cars and some small trucks (e.g. Ridgeline, Baja, Brat, El Camino, Ranchero, most utes) are unibody. Some like the original Jeep Cherokee are hybrids.

ninjinxo 7y ago

The other car is the crumple zone

sdenton4 7y ago
Works great until the first cyber truck on cyber truck accident...
- antonvs 7y ago
  Known in the industry as a homoteslaccident
- symplee 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irresistible_force_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irresistible_force_paradox aka "What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?"
- elif 7y ago
  Whoever has bagged up further will launch as if on a kicker ramp.
willmadden 7y ago
Hahahahaha. Seriously though, crumple zones in cars and trucks aren't the sheet metal on the body. I'm sure Tesla thought about safety ratings. My guess is the "cyber truck"'s sheet metal will crumple in an accident. A car wreck has a lot more force than some guy swinging a sledgehammer at medium force.
- gamblor956 7y ago
  I think we're all sure that the designers thought about crumple zones. And I think we're all pretty sure that Elon overrode those designers and demanded a design and materials that wouldn't crumple.
  - zaroth 7y ago

smrr723 7y ago

It'll still crumple. There's a difference between a guy hitting the door with a sledgehammer and a vehicle driving full force into the side of the truck.

dreamcompiler 7y ago

Tesla cars don't have engine compartments, so pretty much everything forward of the driver is one giant crumple zone. I'd assume this to be true for the truck as well.

gamblor956 7y ago
The point of the comment you're replying to is that the Cyber Truck doesn't crumple... By design.
- romwell 7y ago
  >Cyber Truck doesn't crumple The point of the comment you are replying to is that it would be rather unreasonable to assume that.
  - gamblor956 7y ago
    No, it is quite reasonable to assume the car is designed not to crumple (or to resist crumpling) based on Elon sayng that it was designed not to be dented. Dents are just a minor form of crumpling.
    - adamcharnock 7y ago
      I was under the impression that dents affect bodywork, and crumpling affects (/is provided by) the vehicles internal structure. I would think that makes them distinct concepts in this context.
      - mohaine 7y ago
        Depends on the design of the vehicle. It would be silly to assume Tesla, which has historically created some of the safest cars it their class, would completely ignore driver safety.
    - trickstra 7y ago
      Yeah, emphasis on "minor". Try hitting a lamp.

27182818284 7y ago

Do you actually think that Tesla's engineers aren't aware of crumple zones and car safety?

daedalus_f 7y ago
They may be, but are they prioritizing the safety of their customers above those of other road users? Saftey for the occupants at the expense of other can be used as a marketing factor - get a Tesla truck to reduce your risk of getting killed by a Tesla truck/other truck driver. A similar situation occurred with bull bars in the UK. They protected the car they were fitted to at the expense of the person you hit. They were banned after public outcry - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bull-bars/bull-bars https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bull-bars/bull-ba...
- vonmoltke 7y ago
  > They were banned after public outcry - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bull-bars/bull-ba.. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bull-bars/bull-ba.... Your link explicitly states they are not banned.
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    It implies that that original ones were unsafe and banned. > However, since 25 May 2007, it has been an offence for bull bars that have not been approved as compliant with those safety standards to be sold.

csomar 7y ago

> The fact that the body is undentable and glass is unbreakable makes it sound worse for occupants, too. If it doesn’t crumple, you’re going to be in for a bad time in a car accident. I think this crumple b.s. is made-up non-sense by car manufacturers (it might have minimal marginal impact and would like to be proven wrong). By making my car front bumper a weak piece of plastic that gets scratched and damaged very easily, they can sell it later for $1.000 a piece.

lazyasciiart 7y ago
Your bumper is not the crumple zone. It's the scratch zone.
muzika 7y ago
https://youtu.be/fPF4fBGNK0U https://youtu.be/fPF4fBGNK0U

bluedino 7y ago

We make items out of that same thickness stainless steel and they are very dentable

kube-system 7y ago

The door is not a crumple zone. Crumple zones should be outside of the passenger compartment. Regardless, the sledgehammer demonstration is demonstrating the result of an impact at least several orders of magnitude smaller than a vehicle accident where crumple zones are effective.