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when my relatives complain about how everything is made in china (feeling threatened ?) I like to remind them that most of the actual people living their are ha

when my relatives complain about how everything is made in china (feeling threatened ?) I like to remind them that most of the actual people living their are having a very hard time compared to their cushy western lifestyle.

netsharc 7y ago
Funny how slavery is pretty abstract for the western consumer nowadays, who don't see through several layers of capitalism of "best bang for your bucks". If the factory in China has to increase its minimum wage due to laws, well, "I want to build a phone factory, I want these shareholder-profit-maximizing conditions for the workers, any takers?" (Hah, even Amazon was doing this in the US with its whole HQ2 saga)
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  I can't see any reason to downvote this, I don't think it's at all wrong.
  - merpnderp 7y ago
    China's pivot from Marxism to Capitalism has brought more people out of abject poverty, in a miraculously short period, than any other change in history. It isn't perfect, but there's no other viable option.
    - LifeLiverTransp 7y ago
      Roman pivot from local city state with domain to a expanding empire has objectively made the life of many barbarians better. What have the romans ever doen for thus?
    - tempguy9999 7y ago
      The CCP controls the markets. It's not a free market and thus not capitalism (I am ready to be corrected on any of these points). But that's an aside, the point is that exploitative labour practices come about because of what @netsharc says. You've sidestepped his and my point. If it was you or your children in a sweatshop you mightn't be so gung-ho.
      - EliRivers 7y ago
        It's not a free market and thus not capitalism (I am ready to be corrected on any of these points). Capitalism is about private ownership of the means of production. It often goes hand-in-hand with free markets, but they're not the same thing.
        larnmar 7y ago
        And this is why arguing about “capitalism” is pointless, there’s a bunch of incompatible definitions. You are using a definition closer to Marx’s, while the GP is using a definition closer to Rand’s. (Most people use a fizzier definition than either of these.) Just let these definitional arguments go, they’re not interesting or valuable.
        tempguy9999 7y ago
        Let them go and you have no definitional basis on which to argue, and then how can you engage? I can't see any debate can be at all possible like that. As a general principle agree your definitions before you lock horns and you'll start getting somewhere, if no further than agreeing to disagree.
        cinquemb 7y ago
        > It often goes hand-in-hand with free markets, but they're not the same thing. As an example, interest rate fixing by central banks in DM countries is anathema to free markets and price discovery; yet ownership of production is privatized.
    - larnmar 7y ago
      But crediting the CCP for bringing people out of poverty is like thanking the guy who was drowning you for stopping drowning you.
    - Blackthorn 7y ago
      No other viable option? I recall the Soviet Union's entrance into communism transformed them in a single generation from a backwards nation with serfs to a nation that won the space race, despite facing two wars, one of which involved a genocidal dictator intent on completely destroying them.
      - barry-cotter 7y ago
        One of the reasons WWI broke out when it did was that the German General Staff knew that within ten years they would not be able to win a war with the Russian Empire. The USSR was a lot more backward economically than the Russian Empire, as would be expected when you cut yourself off from world trade and investment and kill large portions of your educated classes. Serfdom was abolished in 1861, so no the USSR did not go from serfdom to the space race.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  Working for money isn’t slavery. Slaves don’t get to tell their bosses to go to hell and go get another job. They don’t go home for Chinese New Year and never come back because they’ve finally saved enough money for a house or paid their sister’s way through university or heard that the money’s better in another city or factory. Slaves are property. For all the many, many awful things that are wrong in China there is no slavery. Minimum wage laws are not economically binding in less developed countries except sometimes for the professional managerial class. They sure as hell aren’t binding in Communist countries like China or Vietnam. You need a strong and powerful state to enforce minimum wage laws. If you can’t manage to vaccinate all the children in your country the laws may be on the books but they won’t be followed.
  - Proven 7y ago
    > You need a strong and powerful state to enforce minimum wage laws. I agree with you comment up to this point. The Party is State and can do whatever it wants. In this case the party chooses to not enforce certain property laws (unpaid wages, IP laws, pollution, etc) because they think that works better for the Party. Workers are expendable. People are expendable. The Party must survive. It's no different elsewhere (consider the EU, for example), it's just a matter of degree.
agumonkey 7y ago
and then complain about not having local products but keep buying cheapest chinese made things
- FussyZeus 7y ago
  With the ongoing depression of wages in the developed world, most people don't have the luxury to "shop ethically." Hell, in many product categories, buying local is just not an option at all. For decades Capitalism has pushed manufacturing jobs overseas first and into the arms of robots second, and also robots overseas for double savings. In those same decades, more and more of the wealth has been concentrated in the super-rich, while the middle class has struggled to continue to exist in any meaningful way. Regular people are satiated with cheaper and cheaper products made in overseas markets, but there's still an overwhelming sense of "broke" permeating societies in the developed world. Eventually the rich are going to have to be willing to let some of the money flow back into larger society, if for no other reason than there will be no more consumers for even their cheapest of goods. This problem goes double as China continues it's rapid industrialization, and begins ascending itself to where it's labor is no longer cheap enough, and capitalism now turns its gaze to even less developed countries for cheap manufacturing. But, this activity itself is what causes industrialization and the rise in cost of labor; and there are a finite number of countries. As usual though no capitalists are thinking in long term goals. Just get the money now, the most you can now, right now, before the whole thing goes toppling over.
  - agumonkey 7y ago
    I understand, and I'd ask no one with financial struggles to make more efforts. Even the people that could buy ethical don't do. The previous century dilluted some important links between people and created a bit too much of a race to the bottom.
    - FussyZeus 7y ago
      > Even the people that could buy ethical don't do. Because it's exhausting, and it's made to be that way on purpose. Brands within brands within brands, shell companies within shell companies, producers selling to distributors selling to distributors selling to distributors. Forget shopping ethically, I think most people would be hard pressed to tell you where anything they've bought, regardless of prior thought, actually came from.
guywithahat 7y ago
I think the issue is you used to not have to compete with China on wages, and there was less regulation so things were cheaper. So you’d start of making low wages (like $10 an hour) and by the time you had a family you’d be making 40k+ a year, and you could lead a pretty nice life like that (and you still can in some states)
larnmar 7y ago
And are the horrors of Chinese labour conditions supposed to make us feel better about the fact that all our stuff is getting made there? I’m confused by the structure of your comment.
- abledon 7y ago
  no, the horrors should make my relatives stfu and stop complaining, because they are lucky they aren't on the wrong end of the coin flip.
  - ng12 7y ago
    Because globalism traded jobs that once supported American families for jobs that allow Chinese families to live in grinding poverty? I don't get it either.
    - abledon 7y ago
      Time will march on no matter what, all I'm saying is that we should be thankful that during our finite lives, we have been blessed to live in the US where freedoms are still available to us. When people complain about products being made in another country... It is what it is... its globalism, its capitalism and thats where we are right now as the human race. It sucks but at least for some, who are lucky, who were born into prosperous nations, they get to enjoy comfy lifestyles compared to other unlucky ones who were born into poor circumstances. jesus lol, also see merp's comment
      - Cougher 7y ago
        "its globalism, its capitalism and thats where we are right now as the human race. It sucks" So they DO have something to complain about; so what's the beef with them complaining about it? Because they're not using your perspective? You're complaining that they're not looking at the issue through the perspective of others, so aren't you doing the same thing? The life experiences of people on the other side of the planet isn't more tangible than your relatives' life experiences which have borne witness to the suckiness that you acknowledge they've experienced. If a parent loses one child in a car accident, are you going to tell him to "stfu" because another parent somewhere lost two children in a car accident?

netsharc 7y ago

Funny how slavery is pretty abstract for the western consumer nowadays, who don't see through several layers of capitalism of "best bang for your bucks". If the factory in China has to increase its minimum wage due to laws, well, "I want to build a phone factory, I want these shareholder-profit-maximizing conditions for the workers, any takers?" (Hah, even Amazon was doing this in the US with its whole HQ2 saga)

tempguy9999 7y ago
I can't see any reason to downvote this, I don't think it's at all wrong.
- merpnderp 7y ago
  China's pivot from Marxism to Capitalism has brought more people out of abject poverty, in a miraculously short period, than any other change in history. It isn't perfect, but there's no other viable option.
  - LifeLiverTransp 7y ago
    Roman pivot from local city state with domain to a expanding empire has objectively made the life of many barbarians better. What have the romans ever doen for thus?
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    The CCP controls the markets. It's not a free market and thus not capitalism (I am ready to be corrected on any of these points). But that's an aside, the point is that exploitative labour practices come about because of what @netsharc says. You've sidestepped his and my point. If it was you or your children in a sweatshop you mightn't be so gung-ho.
    - EliRivers 7y ago
      It's not a free market and thus not capitalism (I am ready to be corrected on any of these points). Capitalism is about private ownership of the means of production. It often goes hand-in-hand with free markets, but they're not the same thing.
      - larnmar 7y ago
        And this is why arguing about “capitalism” is pointless, there’s a bunch of incompatible definitions. You are using a definition closer to Marx’s, while the GP is using a definition closer to Rand’s. (Most people use a fizzier definition than either of these.) Just let these definitional arguments go, they’re not interesting or valuable.
        tempguy9999 7y ago
        Let them go and you have no definitional basis on which to argue, and then how can you engage? I can't see any debate can be at all possible like that. As a general principle agree your definitions before you lock horns and you'll start getting somewhere, if no further than agreeing to disagree.
      - cinquemb 7y ago
        > It often goes hand-in-hand with free markets, but they're not the same thing. As an example, interest rate fixing by central banks in DM countries is anathema to free markets and price discovery; yet ownership of production is privatized.
  - larnmar 7y ago
    But crediting the CCP for bringing people out of poverty is like thanking the guy who was drowning you for stopping drowning you.
  - Blackthorn 7y ago
    No other viable option? I recall the Soviet Union's entrance into communism transformed them in a single generation from a backwards nation with serfs to a nation that won the space race, despite facing two wars, one of which involved a genocidal dictator intent on completely destroying them.
    - barry-cotter 7y ago
      One of the reasons WWI broke out when it did was that the German General Staff knew that within ten years they would not be able to win a war with the Russian Empire. The USSR was a lot more backward economically than the Russian Empire, as would be expected when you cut yourself off from world trade and investment and kill large portions of your educated classes. Serfdom was abolished in 1861, so no the USSR did not go from serfdom to the space race.
barry-cotter 7y ago
Working for money isn’t slavery. Slaves don’t get to tell their bosses to go to hell and go get another job. They don’t go home for Chinese New Year and never come back because they’ve finally saved enough money for a house or paid their sister’s way through university or heard that the money’s better in another city or factory. Slaves are property. For all the many, many awful things that are wrong in China there is no slavery. Minimum wage laws are not economically binding in less developed countries except sometimes for the professional managerial class. They sure as hell aren’t binding in Communist countries like China or Vietnam. You need a strong and powerful state to enforce minimum wage laws. If you can’t manage to vaccinate all the children in your country the laws may be on the books but they won’t be followed.
- Proven 7y ago
  > You need a strong and powerful state to enforce minimum wage laws. I agree with you comment up to this point. The Party is State and can do whatever it wants. In this case the party chooses to not enforce certain property laws (unpaid wages, IP laws, pollution, etc) because they think that works better for the Party. Workers are expendable. People are expendable. The Party must survive. It's no different elsewhere (consider the EU, for example), it's just a matter of degree.

agumonkey 7y ago

and then complain about not having local products but keep buying cheapest chinese made things

FussyZeus 7y ago
With the ongoing depression of wages in the developed world, most people don't have the luxury to "shop ethically." Hell, in many product categories, buying local is just not an option at all. For decades Capitalism has pushed manufacturing jobs overseas first and into the arms of robots second, and also robots overseas for double savings. In those same decades, more and more of the wealth has been concentrated in the super-rich, while the middle class has struggled to continue to exist in any meaningful way. Regular people are satiated with cheaper and cheaper products made in overseas markets, but there's still an overwhelming sense of "broke" permeating societies in the developed world. Eventually the rich are going to have to be willing to let some of the money flow back into larger society, if for no other reason than there will be no more consumers for even their cheapest of goods. This problem goes double as China continues it's rapid industrialization, and begins ascending itself to where it's labor is no longer cheap enough, and capitalism now turns its gaze to even less developed countries for cheap manufacturing. But, this activity itself is what causes industrialization and the rise in cost of labor; and there are a finite number of countries. As usual though no capitalists are thinking in long term goals. Just get the money now, the most you can now, right now, before the whole thing goes toppling over.
- agumonkey 7y ago
  I understand, and I'd ask no one with financial struggles to make more efforts. Even the people that could buy ethical don't do. The previous century dilluted some important links between people and created a bit too much of a race to the bottom.
  - FussyZeus 7y ago
    > Even the people that could buy ethical don't do. Because it's exhausting, and it's made to be that way on purpose. Brands within brands within brands, shell companies within shell companies, producers selling to distributors selling to distributors selling to distributors. Forget shopping ethically, I think most people would be hard pressed to tell you where anything they've bought, regardless of prior thought, actually came from.

guywithahat 7y ago

I think the issue is you used to not have to compete with China on wages, and there was less regulation so things were cheaper. So you’d start of making low wages (like $10 an hour) and by the time you had a family you’d be making 40k+ a year, and you could lead a pretty nice life like that (and you still can in some states)

larnmar 7y ago

And are the horrors of Chinese labour conditions supposed to make us feel better about the fact that all our stuff is getting made there? I’m confused by the structure of your comment.

abledon 7y ago
no, the horrors should make my relatives stfu and stop complaining, because they are lucky they aren't on the wrong end of the coin flip.
- ng12 7y ago
  Because globalism traded jobs that once supported American families for jobs that allow Chinese families to live in grinding poverty? I don't get it either.
  - abledon 7y ago
    Time will march on no matter what, all I'm saying is that we should be thankful that during our finite lives, we have been blessed to live in the US where freedoms are still available to us. When people complain about products being made in another country... It is what it is... its globalism, its capitalism and thats where we are right now as the human race. It sucks but at least for some, who are lucky, who were born into prosperous nations, they get to enjoy comfy lifestyles compared to other unlucky ones who were born into poor circumstances. jesus lol, also see merp's comment
    - Cougher 7y ago
      "its globalism, its capitalism and thats where we are right now as the human race. It sucks" So they DO have something to complain about; so what's the beef with them complaining about it? Because they're not using your perspective? You're complaining that they're not looking at the issue through the perspective of others, so aren't you doing the same thing? The life experiences of people on the other side of the planet isn't more tangible than your relatives' life experiences which have borne witness to the suckiness that you acknowledge they've experienced. If a parent loses one child in a car accident, are you going to tell him to "stfu" because another parent somewhere lost two children in a car accident?