4 ms·

From the wiki reference: >"A big lie (German: große Lüge) is a propaganda technique and logical trick (fallacy)." It is not a specific big lie, but a class of

From the wiki reference: >"A big lie (German: große Lüge) is a propaganda technique and logical trick (fallacy)." It is not a specific big lie, but a class of lies that exploit a certain mass naïveté.

the_af 7y ago
> "It is not a specific big lie, but a class of lies that exploit a certain mass naïveté." At face value, yes. In practice the term is exclusively tied to Hitler's meaning, who coined the term. I'm not even sure if "Big Lie" has ever been used in another context, possibly because the term is a Nazi invention. To be clear, the "mass naïveté" of "The Big Lie" is (alleged by Hitler to be) the populace's, who "believed the Jews" when they claimed (always according to Hitler) that Germany's loss in WWI was to be blamed on Ludendorff. There is no other real-world usage of the term. And we know this Big Lie was itself a lie coined by Hitler, and this alleged conspiracy to exploit the mass naïveté of the people didn't actually exist. From Wikipedia: > "The expression was coined by Adolf Hitler, when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, about the use of a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously". Hitler believed the technique was used by Jews to blame Germany's loss in World War I on German general Erich Ludendorff, who was a prominent nationalist and antisemitic political leader in the Weimar Republic." and > "Jeffrey Herf maintains that Goebbels and the Nazis used the big lie to turn long-standing anti-semitism into mass murder. Herf argues that the big lie was a narrative of an innocent, besieged Germany striking back at an "international Jewry", which it said started World War I." So Big Lie, as a term, is irrevocably linked to the Nazis as its main meaning, is not a "general fallacy", and in fact it could be argued it doesn't describe a fallacy at all, but is itself a fallacy devised by Hitler.
- golemotron 7y ago
  When references disagree with you about a definition, it's time to realize that there can be more than one.
  - the_af 7y ago
    Can you point me to said references? I'm ready to acknowledge them, but I don't see them. The article in Wikipedia (linked to at the start of this thread) is exclusively about the use of the term by the Nazis and how they coined it.
    - golemotron 7y ago
      The wikipedia article identified it as the name of a propaganda technique. There's nothing that restricts the use of that technique to anyone in particular. Consider that people other than the inventor of the hammer can use hammers.
      - the_af 7y ago
        Yes, I understand this, and that's something that sometimes happens with words. But the use of "Big Lie" in this context (i.e. capitalized, a concept about lying) is like the use of "Final Solution": sure, it could be used in another context different to what the Nazis meant by it, but how probable is that? All the examples in Wikipedia are Nazi-related. I'll be happy to stand corrected if you can point me to a single use of this concept of "Big Lie" -- referred to unequivocally as the concept we're debating here, of telling a lie so big people won't accept it's not true -- that does not refer to the alleged "betrayal of Germany" meant by Hitler, or its related Nazi myths and propaganda. At this point I'm only asking you for an example. To be honest I don't think there is, just as there is no other use of Final Solution, but of course I can be proven wrong.
        golemotron 7y ago
        That isn't hard at all. This one refers to it as technique used by the Soviet also. - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/05/21/many-are-worried-about-the-return-of-the-big-lie-theyre-worried-about-the-wrong-thing/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/...
        7y ago

the_af 7y ago

> "It is not a specific big lie, but a class of lies that exploit a certain mass naïveté." At face value, yes. In practice the term is exclusively tied to Hitler's meaning, who coined the term. I'm not even sure if "Big Lie" has ever been used in another context, possibly because the term is a Nazi invention. To be clear, the "mass naïveté" of "The Big Lie" is (alleged by Hitler to be) the populace's, who "believed the Jews" when they claimed (always according to Hitler) that Germany's loss in WWI was to be blamed on Ludendorff. There is no other real-world usage of the term. And we know this Big Lie was itself a lie coined by Hitler, and this alleged conspiracy to exploit the mass naïveté of the people didn't actually exist. From Wikipedia: > "The expression was coined by Adolf Hitler, when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, about the use of a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously". Hitler believed the technique was used by Jews to blame Germany's loss in World War I on German general Erich Ludendorff, who was a prominent nationalist and antisemitic political leader in the Weimar Republic." and > "Jeffrey Herf maintains that Goebbels and the Nazis used the big lie to turn long-standing anti-semitism into mass murder. Herf argues that the big lie was a narrative of an innocent, besieged Germany striking back at an "international Jewry", which it said started World War I." So Big Lie, as a term, is irrevocably linked to the Nazis as its main meaning, is not a "general fallacy", and in fact it could be argued it doesn't describe a fallacy at all, but is itself a fallacy devised by Hitler.

golemotron 7y ago
When references disagree with you about a definition, it's time to realize that there can be more than one.
- the_af 7y ago
  Can you point me to said references? I'm ready to acknowledge them, but I don't see them. The article in Wikipedia (linked to at the start of this thread) is exclusively about the use of the term by the Nazis and how they coined it.
  - golemotron 7y ago
    The wikipedia article identified it as the name of a propaganda technique. There's nothing that restricts the use of that technique to anyone in particular. Consider that people other than the inventor of the hammer can use hammers.
    - the_af 7y ago
      Yes, I understand this, and that's something that sometimes happens with words. But the use of "Big Lie" in this context (i.e. capitalized, a concept about lying) is like the use of "Final Solution": sure, it could be used in another context different to what the Nazis meant by it, but how probable is that? All the examples in Wikipedia are Nazi-related. I'll be happy to stand corrected if you can point me to a single use of this concept of "Big Lie" -- referred to unequivocally as the concept we're debating here, of telling a lie so big people won't accept it's not true -- that does not refer to the alleged "betrayal of Germany" meant by Hitler, or its related Nazi myths and propaganda. At this point I'm only asking you for an example. To be honest I don't think there is, just as there is no other use of Final Solution, but of course I can be proven wrong.
      - golemotron 7y ago
        That isn't hard at all. This one refers to it as technique used by the Soviet also. - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/05/21/many-are-worried-about-the-return-of-the-big-lie-theyre-worried-about-the-wrong-thing/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/...
        7y ago