4 ms·

It's particularly effective when combined with "Big Lie". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

the_af 7y ago
I don't follow. The "Big Lie" is a conspiracy theory devised (or at least advocated) by Hitler in order to justify antisemitism. It's not a true phenomenon -- like the Illusory Truth Effect -- but something Hitler falsely asserted the Jews did.
- wayoutthere 7y ago
  The “Big Lie” was the lie itself — it could not be publicly disproven under the Nazi propaganda machine, and therefore provides a cover story. Nobody really believed the cover story, but they were also too afraid to find out the truth because they knew it would get buried (along with them and probably their family). Such is the power of the “big lie”.
  - the_af 7y ago
    Yes, that's what I was trying to say. The "Big Lie" is not a cognitive bias, it's itself a lie. It's a myth Hitler either invented or popularized. So I don't follow how it relates to the topic under discussion.
    - wayoutthere 7y ago
      I think it’s because Goebbels said something along the lines of “a lie repeated often enough becomes the truth” in reference to the Big Lie.
    - krapp 7y ago
      The cognitive bias is the effect of the big lie. Anti-semitism was already prevalent throughout Western culture at that time, and so the lie was easier to believe because of pre-existing cultural prejudice, and later because the propaganda was simply inescapable.
      - the_af 7y ago
        I'm truly not trying to be dense, but the "Big Lie" (according to Hitler) is something allegedly perpetrated by the Jews against Germany's military, by "blaming" it for the downfall of the nation. "The lie" to what you seem to be referring to doesn't seem to be the the "Big Lie" itself but simply antisemitism ("the Jews are to blame"). These are separate things. It requires antisemitism to believe the Big Lie exists and is perpetrated by "the Jews". From Wikipedia: > "Hitler believed the technique [i.e. the Big Lie] was used by Jews to blame Germany's loss in World War I on German general Erich Ludendorff, who was a prominent nationalist and antisemitic political leader in the Weimar Republic." Maybe we're in violent agreement and I simply misunderstood what you're saying :) edit: to clarify what I'm saying, there are two uses of "Big Lie" at play: 1- The narrative of "The Big Lie", the alleged lie "denounced" by Hitler. This was of course not a real thing, and Hitler made it up while looking for scapegoats and using antisemitism to blame the Jews. 2- The creation of the "Big Lie" itself by Hitler. This is a real thing, but we have a simple word for it: an antisemitic lie.
        krapp 7y ago
        Judging from your other comments here, we may simply be using the same term in different ways - yours being the historically correct one, mine the colloquial one.
        wayoutthere 7y ago
        I don't think this confusion is unintentional. It's a classic fascist tactic to muddy the definition of words, phrases and symbols used by their opponents in order to force the conversation into emotional arguments. You can't have a rational argument when nobody agrees on the definition of the thing you're arguing about.
- krapp 7y ago
  Today's "Big Lie" is simply less overt than that spread by the Nazis, and most people simply don't hear the dog-whistle of anti-semitism behind phrases like "New York liberals" or "cultural Marxism." But the modern day belief in a conspiracy of "globalist, left-wing elites" controlling society, academia and the media is just another, softer iteration on "the Jews" doing the same.
- Merrill 7y ago
  From the wiki reference: >"A big lie (German: große Lüge) is a propaganda technique and logical trick (fallacy)." It is not a specific big lie, but a class of lies that exploit a certain mass naïveté.
  - the_af 7y ago
    > "It is not a specific big lie, but a class of lies that exploit a certain mass naïveté." At face value, yes. In practice the term is exclusively tied to Hitler's meaning, who coined the term. I'm not even sure if "Big Lie" has ever been used in another context, possibly because the term is a Nazi invention. To be clear, the "mass naïveté" of "The Big Lie" is (alleged by Hitler to be) the populace's, who "believed the Jews" when they claimed (always according to Hitler) that Germany's loss in WWI was to be blamed on Ludendorff. There is no other real-world usage of the term. And we know this Big Lie was itself a lie coined by Hitler, and this alleged conspiracy to exploit the mass naïveté of the people didn't actually exist. From Wikipedia: > "The expression was coined by Adolf Hitler, when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, about the use of a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously". Hitler believed the technique was used by Jews to blame Germany's loss in World War I on German general Erich Ludendorff, who was a prominent nationalist and antisemitic political leader in the Weimar Republic." and > "Jeffrey Herf maintains that Goebbels and the Nazis used the big lie to turn long-standing anti-semitism into mass murder. Herf argues that the big lie was a narrative of an innocent, besieged Germany striking back at an "international Jewry", which it said started World War I." So Big Lie, as a term, is irrevocably linked to the Nazis as its main meaning, is not a "general fallacy", and in fact it could be argued it doesn't describe a fallacy at all, but is itself a fallacy devised by Hitler.
    - golemotron 7y ago
      When references disagree with you about a definition, it's time to realize that there can be more than one.
      - the_af 7y ago

the_af 7y ago

I don't follow. The "Big Lie" is a conspiracy theory devised (or at least advocated) by Hitler in order to justify antisemitism. It's not a true phenomenon -- like the Illusory Truth Effect -- but something Hitler falsely asserted the Jews did.

wayoutthere 7y ago
The “Big Lie” was the lie itself — it could not be publicly disproven under the Nazi propaganda machine, and therefore provides a cover story. Nobody really believed the cover story, but they were also too afraid to find out the truth because they knew it would get buried (along with them and probably their family). Such is the power of the “big lie”.
- the_af 7y ago
  Yes, that's what I was trying to say. The "Big Lie" is not a cognitive bias, it's itself a lie. It's a myth Hitler either invented or popularized. So I don't follow how it relates to the topic under discussion.
  - wayoutthere 7y ago
    I think it’s because Goebbels said something along the lines of “a lie repeated often enough becomes the truth” in reference to the Big Lie.
  - krapp 7y ago
    The cognitive bias is the effect of the big lie. Anti-semitism was already prevalent throughout Western culture at that time, and so the lie was easier to believe because of pre-existing cultural prejudice, and later because the propaganda was simply inescapable.
    - the_af 7y ago
      I'm truly not trying to be dense, but the "Big Lie" (according to Hitler) is something allegedly perpetrated by the Jews against Germany's military, by "blaming" it for the downfall of the nation. "The lie" to what you seem to be referring to doesn't seem to be the the "Big Lie" itself but simply antisemitism ("the Jews are to blame"). These are separate things. It requires antisemitism to believe the Big Lie exists and is perpetrated by "the Jews". From Wikipedia: > "Hitler believed the technique [i.e. the Big Lie] was used by Jews to blame Germany's loss in World War I on German general Erich Ludendorff, who was a prominent nationalist and antisemitic political leader in the Weimar Republic." Maybe we're in violent agreement and I simply misunderstood what you're saying :) edit: to clarify what I'm saying, there are two uses of "Big Lie" at play: 1- The narrative of "The Big Lie", the alleged lie "denounced" by Hitler. This was of course not a real thing, and Hitler made it up while looking for scapegoats and using antisemitism to blame the Jews. 2- The creation of the "Big Lie" itself by Hitler. This is a real thing, but we have a simple word for it: an antisemitic lie.
      - krapp 7y ago
        Judging from your other comments here, we may simply be using the same term in different ways - yours being the historically correct one, mine the colloquial one.
      - wayoutthere 7y ago
        I don't think this confusion is unintentional. It's a classic fascist tactic to muddy the definition of words, phrases and symbols used by their opponents in order to force the conversation into emotional arguments. You can't have a rational argument when nobody agrees on the definition of the thing you're arguing about.
krapp 7y ago
Today's "Big Lie" is simply less overt than that spread by the Nazis, and most people simply don't hear the dog-whistle of anti-semitism behind phrases like "New York liberals" or "cultural Marxism." But the modern day belief in a conspiracy of "globalist, left-wing elites" controlling society, academia and the media is just another, softer iteration on "the Jews" doing the same.
Merrill 7y ago
From the wiki reference: >"A big lie (German: große Lüge) is a propaganda technique and logical trick (fallacy)." It is not a specific big lie, but a class of lies that exploit a certain mass naïveté.
- the_af 7y ago
  > "It is not a specific big lie, but a class of lies that exploit a certain mass naïveté." At face value, yes. In practice the term is exclusively tied to Hitler's meaning, who coined the term. I'm not even sure if "Big Lie" has ever been used in another context, possibly because the term is a Nazi invention. To be clear, the "mass naïveté" of "The Big Lie" is (alleged by Hitler to be) the populace's, who "believed the Jews" when they claimed (always according to Hitler) that Germany's loss in WWI was to be blamed on Ludendorff. There is no other real-world usage of the term. And we know this Big Lie was itself a lie coined by Hitler, and this alleged conspiracy to exploit the mass naïveté of the people didn't actually exist. From Wikipedia: > "The expression was coined by Adolf Hitler, when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, about the use of a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously". Hitler believed the technique was used by Jews to blame Germany's loss in World War I on German general Erich Ludendorff, who was a prominent nationalist and antisemitic political leader in the Weimar Republic." and > "Jeffrey Herf maintains that Goebbels and the Nazis used the big lie to turn long-standing anti-semitism into mass murder. Herf argues that the big lie was a narrative of an innocent, besieged Germany striking back at an "international Jewry", which it said started World War I." So Big Lie, as a term, is irrevocably linked to the Nazis as its main meaning, is not a "general fallacy", and in fact it could be argued it doesn't describe a fallacy at all, but is itself a fallacy devised by Hitler.
  - golemotron 7y ago
    When references disagree with you about a definition, it's time to realize that there can be more than one.
    - the_af 7y ago