6 ms·

> For instance, cancer progresses much faster in summer than in winter [edit: cancer progresses much faster in constant light: winter vs. summer is complicated]

> For instance, cancer progresses much faster in summer than in winter [edit: cancer progresses much faster in constant light: winter vs. summer is complicated] I don't know you, you make a very successful app that people really swear by. I have no qualms about people using f.lux, if you want to take your $4,600 laptop and $1,400 phone, on which people spent decades perfecting color reproduction, and you're paying $13/mo for Netflix to watch shows with multi-million dollar budgets and dedicated colorists, and you start watching Orange is the New Black and you make it yellow, that's your prerogative. So you don't need my opinions, so don't downvote just because you like f.lux and hate opinions. Why did you have to say anything about cancer at all? What's your personal line for, "I'm not sure" versus "This is actionable evidence for change in behavior?" There is no clinically controlled evidence showing that interventional blue light, the kind that would be emitted from an LED, causes significant change in sleep quality with measures like minutes spent sleeping or an insomnia scoring system. I found this by searching "blue light" and "sleep" in clinicaltrials.gov. There are 4 or 5 studies on the matter, all negative results. The best way to interpret this evidence is that blue light will not make you sleep less or experience insomnia more. Indeed, if you consulted a doctor, you might learn that waking up too early is the most common sleep disturbance in adults. This interferes with their daily lives, by causing them to feel drowsy in the middle of the day. That's why blue light is typically investigated as an intervention: to get people to fall asleep and wake up later. It just doesn't turn out to work for that. Its absence is not causing people to fall asleep earlier either.

jiofih 7y ago
Someone might not hate opinions, just not appreciate the condescending tone in yours. You can still rely on the color reproduction of your expensive device when it matters.
errantspark 7y ago
I'm just commenting to save what might be the saltiest comment I've ever seen on HN. I bet you're very fun at parties.
- Tenoke 7y ago
  The first part and general tone of the comment might be weirdly negative but their main point is valid Quoting something as questionable as "For instance, cancer progresses much faster in summer than in winter" as a fact, without even a citation while signaling expertise is not exactly great.
- OnlineGladiator 7y ago
  I certainly wouldn't call GP's comment friendly, but I found it informative. Especially when you're trying to discuss things scientifically, I care much more about truth than kindness (not that you shouldn't try to be nice). I think replies criticizing flaws in comments are some of the most underappreciated tidbits of HN, because they are drilling into the details which are what really matters.
- maxerickson 7y ago
  You can directly save comments by clicking on the timestamp. Then click "favorite".
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Favorited comments show up publicly. You may not want to appear to exclusively enjoy barbed comments.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't cross into personal attack, even if another comment was bad for HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
didibus 7y ago
Maybe there hasn't been any clinical trial, but this article suggests there were quite a few studies on it: https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-has-a-dark-side https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-ha... Not the cancer thing, but the blue light effects. Well actually it talks a little about cancer as well :p
- rolandog 7y ago
  It does mention that it is very preliminary: Some studies suggest a link between exposure to light at night, such as working the night shift, to some types of cancer, diabetes, heart disease, and obesity. That's not proof that nighttime light exposure causes these conditions; nor is it clear why it could be bad for us. But we do know that exposure to light suppresses the secretion of melatonin, a hormone that influences circadian rhythms, and there's some experimental evidence (it's very preliminary) that lower melatonin levels might explain the association with cancer.
webgoat 7y ago
Thank you for your comment, you have just saved me from taking in fake news. Any tone you take is fine when you're preventing the spread of misinformation, so keep being you.
drited 7y ago
In response to this part of your comment, f. Lux allows you to specify programs like Netflix, VLC, Photoshop where it will automatically turn off 'you're paying $13/mo for Netflix to watch shows with multi-million dollar budgets and dedicated colorists, and you start watching Orange is the New Black and you make it yellow,'
lm28469 7y ago
> if you want to take your $4,600 laptop and $1,400 phone, on which people spent decades perfecting color reproduction, and you're paying $13/mo for Netflix to watch shows with multi-million dollar budgets and dedicated colorists, and you start watching Orange is the New Black and you make it yellow, You're projecting way too much my man. What about the people with 70$ monitors using flux while coding at night to avoid fucking up their sleep cycle ? > The best way to interpret this evidence is that blue light will not make you sleep less or experience insomnia more. Type "blue light circadian rhythm study" on google and you basically only find studies supporting that blue light has a negative impact. I got a pair of anti blue light glasses recently and I'm 100% confident they indeed do reduce eye strain and ease falling asleep.
- bildung 7y ago
  > Type "blue light circadian rhythm study" on google and you basically only find studies supporting that blue light has a negative impact. But the moment you actually evaluate the studies, you'll find that almost all * don't research blue light specifically, but light at all * use unrealistic settings, like 4 to 8 hours bedtime reading (really) * don't properly control for other known sleep affecting factors - and have small sample groups so they can't rely on the law of large numbers to solve that issue * only measure melatonin, not actual sleep. If you filter those out, the result ist basically zero quality studies. I'm aware that many people swear that this works, but there really is not much scientific support for the theory. Just for comparison: Full sunlight has up to 30000lux of blue light alone, while a very bright phone screen, set to all white, manages to output at most 300lux of blue light. There may be a real effect here, but it has to be weak, else people in scandinavia would have severe problems with their circadian rhythms.
  - herf 7y ago
    It is important first to say that sleep optimization is not the only goal with these things, and understanding the timing of melatonin (not just melatonin suppression) is how we find out "when" the circadian clock is set. The circadian system is loosely coupled to sleep, but it affects many other parts of the body. So if your rhythms are more than 2-3 hours out of sync you will definitely have more trouble sleeping, but this is not the only effect, which is why we work with people studying other topics also. But overall, yes, I think we'll learn that regular room lighting has at least as big an effect as screens, and that's because in terms of "hours" people spend a lot of them in general illumination, but often only check their phone a few times, or watch a dark movie, which isn't very bright. It's only some of us that code all night in front of a bright screen.
atoav 7y ago
I am a colorist, working on a very expensive Eizo and I still have f.lux on my machine. Obviously I added exceptions for all applications that are color critical and switch it of for an hour while watching a movie late. For me it is just a natural sign that I shouldn’t go on forever on the computer. A way to bring the outside night/day cycle onto my machine, you could say.
herf 7y ago
Well there are several topics here: first, it is not true that people thinking about visual performance will find the right schedule for non-visual (circadian, alertness). The two are simply different concentrations, and we have chosen to focus our research and work on non-visual responses. Treating sleep-maintenance insomnia is often done by increasing light levels at night to move rhythms later, and seasonality often requires different patterns of light based on the time of year. This is one of the reasons we have been asking people not to copy what we said in 2009 - some people need more light at night during the winter, not less, and timing needs vary greatly. Our core audience for f.lux is younger people, and on average they need less light at night - the normal distribution of chronotypes has a very long tail in the direction of night owls, and their timing tends to be most at odds with society's requirements for wake times. So I would say the product as it is today tends to be a better fit for the night owl half of the distrubution, and not extreme early types. But our main area of study is to generalize these schedules and lighting changes to be "right" for nearly everyone. It is rather difficult work, and you have to study the effects over years.
reificator 7y ago
> I have no qualms about people using f.lux, if you want to take your $4,600 laptop and $1,400 phone, on which people spent decades perfecting color reproduction, and you're paying $13/mo for Netflix to watch shows with multi-million dollar budgets and dedicated colorists, and you start watching Orange is the New Black and you make it yellow, that's your prerogative. So you don't need my opinions, so don't downvote just because you like f.lux and hate opinions. You do know there are lots of toggles and shortcuts to tweak or disable flux when doing something color sensitive, right? There's even an explicit `Movie Mode` that does the best it can (not much tbh) without noticeably affecting color reproduction for the average viewer. I disable flux when watching movies, playing games, or editing (color) images. It's not that hard. That said, I don't run it as a substitute for medical advice. I run it because monitors are fucking bright and I enjoy working at night with dimmer lights that match my environment. I'd use an eink monitor at night if they were affordable, large enough, and software supported them better.
dang 7y ago
You can't post in the flamewar style like this to HN, and we ban accounts that do it. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here? Note this one: Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21661852 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21661852 and marked it off-topic.

jiofih 7y ago

Someone might not hate opinions, just not appreciate the condescending tone in yours. You can still rely on the color reproduction of your expensive device when it matters.

errantspark 7y ago

I'm just commenting to save what might be the saltiest comment I've ever seen on HN. I bet you're very fun at parties.

Tenoke 7y ago
The first part and general tone of the comment might be weirdly negative but their main point is valid Quoting something as questionable as "For instance, cancer progresses much faster in summer than in winter" as a fact, without even a citation while signaling expertise is not exactly great.
OnlineGladiator 7y ago
I certainly wouldn't call GP's comment friendly, but I found it informative. Especially when you're trying to discuss things scientifically, I care much more about truth than kindness (not that you shouldn't try to be nice). I think replies criticizing flaws in comments are some of the most underappreciated tidbits of HN, because they are drilling into the details which are what really matters.
maxerickson 7y ago
You can directly save comments by clicking on the timestamp. Then click "favorite".
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Favorited comments show up publicly. You may not want to appear to exclusively enjoy barbed comments.
dang 7y ago
Please don't cross into personal attack, even if another comment was bad for HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

didibus 7y ago

Maybe there hasn't been any clinical trial, but this article suggests there were quite a few studies on it: https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-has-a-dark-side https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-ha... Not the cancer thing, but the blue light effects. Well actually it talks a little about cancer as well :p

rolandog 7y ago
It does mention that it is very preliminary: Some studies suggest a link between exposure to light at night, such as working the night shift, to some types of cancer, diabetes, heart disease, and obesity. That's not proof that nighttime light exposure causes these conditions; nor is it clear why it could be bad for us. But we do know that exposure to light suppresses the secretion of melatonin, a hormone that influences circadian rhythms, and there's some experimental evidence (it's very preliminary) that lower melatonin levels might explain the association with cancer.

webgoat 7y ago

Thank you for your comment, you have just saved me from taking in fake news. Any tone you take is fine when you're preventing the spread of misinformation, so keep being you.

drited 7y ago

In response to this part of your comment, f. Lux allows you to specify programs like Netflix, VLC, Photoshop where it will automatically turn off 'you're paying $13/mo for Netflix to watch shows with multi-million dollar budgets and dedicated colorists, and you start watching Orange is the New Black and you make it yellow,'

lm28469 7y ago

> if you want to take your $4,600 laptop and $1,400 phone, on which people spent decades perfecting color reproduction, and you're paying $13/mo for Netflix to watch shows with multi-million dollar budgets and dedicated colorists, and you start watching Orange is the New Black and you make it yellow, You're projecting way too much my man. What about the people with 70$ monitors using flux while coding at night to avoid fucking up their sleep cycle ? > The best way to interpret this evidence is that blue light will not make you sleep less or experience insomnia more. Type "blue light circadian rhythm study" on google and you basically only find studies supporting that blue light has a negative impact. I got a pair of anti blue light glasses recently and I'm 100% confident they indeed do reduce eye strain and ease falling asleep.

bildung 7y ago
> Type "blue light circadian rhythm study" on google and you basically only find studies supporting that blue light has a negative impact. But the moment you actually evaluate the studies, you'll find that almost all * don't research blue light specifically, but light at all * use unrealistic settings, like 4 to 8 hours bedtime reading (really) * don't properly control for other known sleep affecting factors - and have small sample groups so they can't rely on the law of large numbers to solve that issue * only measure melatonin, not actual sleep. If you filter those out, the result ist basically zero quality studies. I'm aware that many people swear that this works, but there really is not much scientific support for the theory. Just for comparison: Full sunlight has up to 30000lux of blue light alone, while a very bright phone screen, set to all white, manages to output at most 300lux of blue light. There may be a real effect here, but it has to be weak, else people in scandinavia would have severe problems with their circadian rhythms.
- herf 7y ago
  It is important first to say that sleep optimization is not the only goal with these things, and understanding the timing of melatonin (not just melatonin suppression) is how we find out "when" the circadian clock is set. The circadian system is loosely coupled to sleep, but it affects many other parts of the body. So if your rhythms are more than 2-3 hours out of sync you will definitely have more trouble sleeping, but this is not the only effect, which is why we work with people studying other topics also. But overall, yes, I think we'll learn that regular room lighting has at least as big an effect as screens, and that's because in terms of "hours" people spend a lot of them in general illumination, but often only check their phone a few times, or watch a dark movie, which isn't very bright. It's only some of us that code all night in front of a bright screen.

atoav 7y ago

I am a colorist, working on a very expensive Eizo and I still have f.lux on my machine. Obviously I added exceptions for all applications that are color critical and switch it of for an hour while watching a movie late. For me it is just a natural sign that I shouldn’t go on forever on the computer. A way to bring the outside night/day cycle onto my machine, you could say.

herf 7y ago

Well there are several topics here: first, it is not true that people thinking about visual performance will find the right schedule for non-visual (circadian, alertness). The two are simply different concentrations, and we have chosen to focus our research and work on non-visual responses. Treating sleep-maintenance insomnia is often done by increasing light levels at night to move rhythms later, and seasonality often requires different patterns of light based on the time of year. This is one of the reasons we have been asking people not to copy what we said in 2009 - some people need more light at night during the winter, not less, and timing needs vary greatly. Our core audience for f.lux is younger people, and on average they need less light at night - the normal distribution of chronotypes has a very long tail in the direction of night owls, and their timing tends to be most at odds with society's requirements for wake times. So I would say the product as it is today tends to be a better fit for the night owl half of the distrubution, and not extreme early types. But our main area of study is to generalize these schedules and lighting changes to be "right" for nearly everyone. It is rather difficult work, and you have to study the effects over years.

reificator 7y ago

> I have no qualms about people using f.lux, if you want to take your $4,600 laptop and $1,400 phone, on which people spent decades perfecting color reproduction, and you're paying $13/mo for Netflix to watch shows with multi-million dollar budgets and dedicated colorists, and you start watching Orange is the New Black and you make it yellow, that's your prerogative. So you don't need my opinions, so don't downvote just because you like f.lux and hate opinions. You do know there are lots of toggles and shortcuts to tweak or disable flux when doing something color sensitive, right? There's even an explicit `Movie Mode` that does the best it can (not much tbh) without noticeably affecting color reproduction for the average viewer. I disable flux when watching movies, playing games, or editing (color) images. It's not that hard. That said, I don't run it as a substitute for medical advice. I run it because monitors are fucking bright and I enjoy working at night with dimmer lights that match my environment. I'd use an eink monitor at night if they were affordable, large enough, and software supported them better.

dang 7y ago

You can't post in the flamewar style like this to HN, and we ban accounts that do it. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here? Note this one: Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21661852 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21661852 and marked it off-topic.