8 ms·

It's interesting to see people in the west often lauding Singapore for that and vilifying China if they do the same.

by ulfw 7y ago

Peckingjay 7y ago
Most likely because Singapore is not also putting huge amount of people in detention camps and harvesting their organs. Maybe if they had the scale to do so they would, but that's not really the question when it comes to public opinion.
- hopefulcynic 7y ago
  > Most likely because Singapore is not also putting huge amount of people in detention camps and harvesting their organs. To be fair, the chinese call it de-radicalization/re-education centers, which they set up after a few extremist separatist attacks which killed hundreds of people. And as for the organs, much of the west ( especially in europe ) take people's organs without their explicit consent (it's called opt-out organ "donation". > Maybe if they had the scale to do so they would, but that's not really the question when it comes to public opinion. Nonsense. It's called political expediency and the trade war. A decade ago, when china was our "friend", we were talking about "chimerica" and praising their handling of muslim extremists in xinjiang and china's help with our war on "muslim terrorists". A decade later and we are in the midst of a trade war and the propaganda changes.
  - ajscanlan 7y ago
    > And as for the organs, much of the west ( especially in europe ) take people's organs without their explicit consent (it's called opt-out organ "donation". I feel like equating the forcible harvesting of organs to opt out organ donation is extremely disingenuous.
    - hopefulcynic 7y ago
      I have a feeling that "forcible havesting of organs" is just propaganda. I remember hearing about "forcible harvesting of organs" of the falun gong 20 years ago when the west and china were going through a difficult period of china's ascension to the WTO. And once the "difficulties" were overcome, nothing about falun gong and the "organ harvesting". I also remember the propaganda about iraqi soldiers killing babies in hospitals which turned out to be a manufactured lie. I'm sure the chinese government does a lot of bad things, like every major government, but the 24/7 ridiculous "news" we are getting now, is just propaganda. I'm not a psychic, but I predicted the following when the trade war began. 1. "organ harvesting" ( to be fair I mistakenly assumed it would be tied to tibetans or the falun gong ) 2. hong kong protest ( just like during the pivot to asia 5 years ago ) 3. "chinese spies" or "politicians" magically defecting with outlandish stories 4. "international" awards ( nobel peace, think tank awards, whatever ) being awarded to politically expedient people And if things really escalate, then I'll make another prediction - yellow peril style propaganda. And of course, the chinese will also escalate their propaganda.
      - viewbase 7y ago
        The worrying part is the American public keeps falling for the same tricks: Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, Syria has chemical weapons, Gaddafi's soldiers supposedly issued viagra for raping women, voting Bush for second term, etc. I have no doubt these countries have done horrible things, but they do not deserve to be invaded and subjected to millions of civilian deaths.
      - squiggleblaz 7y ago
        This is the internet. You can't retrospectively claim your predictions have come true without providing a dated link to when you actually made them. If the PRC wants to be respected, they could publish information and allow journalists in instead of lying.
- viewbase 7y ago
  Genuine question: is there any proof for organ harvesting of Uighurs yet? A quick Google search on "Uyghur organ harvesting" leads to me tabloid sources and calls for investigations. Uighurs are Turkic people who are genetically different from ethnic Chinese. Transplant recipients must have similar genes in their immune systems to those of the donor. Otherwise, the body will reject the organ. This is also why blacks have a harder time finding organ donors: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2013/01/21/blacks-tougher-finding-kidney-transplants/1851737/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2013/01/21/blacks...
  - ghostwriter 7y ago
    * https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/China_hidden_camps https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/China_hidden_cam... * https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/06/18/china-killing-prisoners-to-harvest-organs-for-transplant-tribunal-finds/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/06/18/china-kil...
    - viewbase 7y ago
      The articles do not offer much in the way of evidences. This is understandable since the authoritarian nature of China makes it hard to gather any evidence in the first place. I remain skeptical over the fact that Uighurs (Caucasians) and ethnic Chinese (East Asians) are genetically different and the recipient's body is very likely to reject the organ.
      - ghostwriter 7y ago
        organs may not necessarily be taken for transplantation only, tissues from various parts of human body are valuable for lab research of various kinds. Also, what kind of evidence would be sufficient for you? A video footage of harvesting from one of the camps?
  - isatty 7y ago
    Not this comment again (and yes after looking through your comment history you've been saying the same thing over and over again). Please be gone.
archibaldJ 7y ago
I've lived in Singapore for more than half of my life and met expats there from all walks of life. And I would tell you Singapore is very well integrated with western values, both in terms of the cultures and the social-political aspects of many things (other than weed and cocaine, etc; but you can certainly get your hand on some lsd if you know the right contacts). Anyway the point is that Singapore is very westernised and very, very clean in the conservative way - it's like a little Sydney without all the underground and neo-liberalism - and that's why the west love it (i.e. in general, especially the Rights - I've not known a self-declared Left that could stand staying in Singapore for more than a week). There is just a tremendous amount of logistics transactions happening everyday there. I've just moved back to China now and I would have to say that China does the opposite of embracing western values. They go with, well, "the Chinese way". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21602206 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21602206
- StreamBright 7y ago
  What the western values in this case? This is a legitimate question, not sure why the down votes.
  - archibaldJ 7y ago
    why the down votes - karma inflation. Too many people have received enough karma to downvote nowadays, especially people that jump the shark too early.
- bkor 7y ago
  > And I would tell you Singapore is very well integrated with western values [..] > I've not known a self-declared Left that could stand staying in Singapore for more than a week Weird combination of statements. It gives the impression (though you probably mean something different that anyone not liking it is 1) "left" 2) not part of Western values Left vs right is pretty useless distinction anyway. Someone who is considered "left" in US is IMO very much "right" in Netherlands. Plus some parties on the right or left differ greatly on how they see things. E.g. not every "left" party will align with what someone agrees with; else there wouldn't be multiple parties. Those parties differ more greatly than "a little bit left" vs "a lot left" (with some exceptions). Further, I reject the notion that someone who is left wouldn't be able to stand staying in Singapore for more than a week. Though biggest problem is that after a week there's not much to do (for anyone reading along, all the Singaporean colleagues completely agree with me on this!) :-P
apatters 7y ago
You statement seems like whataboutism, a logical fallacy that attempts to discredit someone else by making an false accusation of hypocrisy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism In truth a common Western position is that China and Singapore are not equivalent because despite its problems, Singapore still commits fewer human rights violations than China. This position is based on extensive research and observation by multiple NGOs which rank countries by the severity of their human rights violations, as a starter point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices I note from your HN profile that you have a number of professional connections to China. Perhaps it is in your personal interest to support the Chinese state? Given the other details of your background, it looks like you've probably benefited from living under regimes with much better human rights records than China's. I would encourage you to have compassion for people who are not born with the right to free expression, the right to practice their own religion, etc. and to recognize that China and Singapore are by no means the same.
- ulfw 7y ago
  You completely misinterpreted my small single sentence and misread my background too. I don't intend to discredit Singapore. AT ALL. I have high respect for Singapore as a nation and some of my best friends live there. I lived there for three years, founded a startup there. My "professional connections" to China are absolutely tiny in comparison and have nothing to do with my statement. Not everyone has political motives! I am also not picking sides for or against anyone, unlike what you seem to want to do and what you are trying to paint me as doing. The world isn't black or white.
  - apatters 7y ago
    Your response is long on explanations of what a nice guy you are and how much you love Singapore, where your close business partners reside. All that however is immaterial to the observation that you've committed the fallacy of whataboutism, seemingly to discredit critics of China's human rights violations, which you've labeled as political - please consider that for many people the right to not have their organs harvested or be force fed pork is more than just politics. Respectfully I think this is a poor look for a business leader and graduate of America's elite universities. Or for anyone.
malka 7y ago
yeah, putting people in concentration camp because of their religion does not seem to buy them much credit. Weird.
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
  Most Chinese Muslims are not Uyghur. The Chinese government doesn't care about its citizens being Muslim per se. The issues are actually quite different - separatism and a string terrorist attacks that caused a government crackdown.
  - Grue3 7y ago
    The fact that it's ethnic, and not religious discrimination makes it even worse.
    - humanrebar 7y ago
      You're on your own on that one. Religious discrimination is just as bad. And even if you disagree, plenty of basically ethnic has been justified by superfluous religious differences.
    - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
      I don't know exactly what it's based on. It could be based on what websites people visit, or whether they attend mosques the government considers to be radical. The reporting on the issue leaves much to be desired.
  - squiggleblaz 7y ago
    Separatism shouldn't be a crime, and the government crackdown is completely out of proportion with the terrorism that has occurred.
    - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
      I agree on both counts, but the reality is that in China, politically agitating for separatism is going to get you in very serious trouble. I find that in Western reporting, the actual issues involved in Xinjiang are not discussed at all. Instead, it's presented as if the Chinese government had a problem with Muslims. The entire issue of separatism is rarely mentioned, nor is the fact that the largest Muslim group in China is actually the Hui (rather than the Uyghurs). The media is not really trying to inform the public about the situation and underlying conflicts (e.g., the East Turkestan movement), and instead painting a vastly dumbed-down, cartoonish picture that serves other propaganda interests.

It's interesting to see people in the west often lauding Singapore for that and vilifying China if they do the same.

by ulfw 7y ago

It's interesting to see people in the west often lauding Singapore for that and vilifying China if they do the same.

Most likely because Singapore is not also putting huge amount of people in detention camps and harvesting their organs. Maybe if they had the scale to do so they would, but that's not really the question when it comes to public opinion.

hopefulcynic 7y ago
> Most likely because Singapore is not also putting huge amount of people in detention camps and harvesting their organs. To be fair, the chinese call it de-radicalization/re-education centers, which they set up after a few extremist separatist attacks which killed hundreds of people. And as for the organs, much of the west ( especially in europe ) take people's organs without their explicit consent (it's called opt-out organ "donation". > Maybe if they had the scale to do so they would, but that's not really the question when it comes to public opinion. Nonsense. It's called political expediency and the trade war. A decade ago, when china was our "friend", we were talking about "chimerica" and praising their handling of muslim extremists in xinjiang and china's help with our war on "muslim terrorists". A decade later and we are in the midst of a trade war and the propaganda changes.
- ajscanlan 7y ago
  > And as for the organs, much of the west ( especially in europe ) take people's organs without their explicit consent (it's called opt-out organ "donation". I feel like equating the forcible harvesting of organs to opt out organ donation is extremely disingenuous.
  - hopefulcynic 7y ago
    I have a feeling that "forcible havesting of organs" is just propaganda. I remember hearing about "forcible harvesting of organs" of the falun gong 20 years ago when the west and china were going through a difficult period of china's ascension to the WTO. And once the "difficulties" were overcome, nothing about falun gong and the "organ harvesting". I also remember the propaganda about iraqi soldiers killing babies in hospitals which turned out to be a manufactured lie. I'm sure the chinese government does a lot of bad things, like every major government, but the 24/7 ridiculous "news" we are getting now, is just propaganda. I'm not a psychic, but I predicted the following when the trade war began. 1. "organ harvesting" ( to be fair I mistakenly assumed it would be tied to tibetans or the falun gong ) 2. hong kong protest ( just like during the pivot to asia 5 years ago ) 3. "chinese spies" or "politicians" magically defecting with outlandish stories 4. "international" awards ( nobel peace, think tank awards, whatever ) being awarded to politically expedient people And if things really escalate, then I'll make another prediction - yellow peril style propaganda. And of course, the chinese will also escalate their propaganda.
    - viewbase 7y ago
      The worrying part is the American public keeps falling for the same tricks: Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, Syria has chemical weapons, Gaddafi's soldiers supposedly issued viagra for raping women, voting Bush for second term, etc. I have no doubt these countries have done horrible things, but they do not deserve to be invaded and subjected to millions of civilian deaths.
    - squiggleblaz 7y ago
      This is the internet. You can't retrospectively claim your predictions have come true without providing a dated link to when you actually made them. If the PRC wants to be respected, they could publish information and allow journalists in instead of lying.
viewbase 7y ago
Genuine question: is there any proof for organ harvesting of Uighurs yet? A quick Google search on "Uyghur organ harvesting" leads to me tabloid sources and calls for investigations. Uighurs are Turkic people who are genetically different from ethnic Chinese. Transplant recipients must have similar genes in their immune systems to those of the donor. Otherwise, the body will reject the organ. This is also why blacks have a harder time finding organ donors: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2013/01/21/blacks-tougher-finding-kidney-transplants/1851737/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2013/01/21/blacks...
- ghostwriter 7y ago
  * https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/China_hidden_camps https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/China_hidden_cam... * https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/06/18/china-killing-prisoners-to-harvest-organs-for-transplant-tribunal-finds/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2019/06/18/china-kil...
  - viewbase 7y ago
    The articles do not offer much in the way of evidences. This is understandable since the authoritarian nature of China makes it hard to gather any evidence in the first place. I remain skeptical over the fact that Uighurs (Caucasians) and ethnic Chinese (East Asians) are genetically different and the recipient's body is very likely to reject the organ.
    - ghostwriter 7y ago
      organs may not necessarily be taken for transplantation only, tissues from various parts of human body are valuable for lab research of various kinds. Also, what kind of evidence would be sufficient for you? A video footage of harvesting from one of the camps?
- isatty 7y ago
  Not this comment again (and yes after looking through your comment history you've been saying the same thing over and over again). Please be gone.

archibaldJ 7y ago

I've lived in Singapore for more than half of my life and met expats there from all walks of life. And I would tell you Singapore is very well integrated with western values, both in terms of the cultures and the social-political aspects of many things (other than weed and cocaine, etc; but you can certainly get your hand on some lsd if you know the right contacts). Anyway the point is that Singapore is very westernised and very, very clean in the conservative way - it's like a little Sydney without all the underground and neo-liberalism - and that's why the west love it (i.e. in general, especially the Rights - I've not known a self-declared Left that could stand staying in Singapore for more than a week). There is just a tremendous amount of logistics transactions happening everyday there. I've just moved back to China now and I would have to say that China does the opposite of embracing western values. They go with, well, "the Chinese way". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21602206 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21602206

StreamBright 7y ago
What the western values in this case? This is a legitimate question, not sure why the down votes.
- archibaldJ 7y ago
  why the down votes - karma inflation. Too many people have received enough karma to downvote nowadays, especially people that jump the shark too early.
bkor 7y ago
> And I would tell you Singapore is very well integrated with western values [..] > I've not known a self-declared Left that could stand staying in Singapore for more than a week Weird combination of statements. It gives the impression (though you probably mean something different that anyone not liking it is 1) "left" 2) not part of Western values Left vs right is pretty useless distinction anyway. Someone who is considered "left" in US is IMO very much "right" in Netherlands. Plus some parties on the right or left differ greatly on how they see things. E.g. not every "left" party will align with what someone agrees with; else there wouldn't be multiple parties. Those parties differ more greatly than "a little bit left" vs "a lot left" (with some exceptions). Further, I reject the notion that someone who is left wouldn't be able to stand staying in Singapore for more than a week. Though biggest problem is that after a week there's not much to do (for anyone reading along, all the Singaporean colleagues completely agree with me on this!) :-P

apatters 7y ago

You statement seems like whataboutism, a logical fallacy that attempts to discredit someone else by making an false accusation of hypocrisy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism In truth a common Western position is that China and Singapore are not equivalent because despite its problems, Singapore still commits fewer human rights violations than China. This position is based on extensive research and observation by multiple NGOs which rank countries by the severity of their human rights violations, as a starter point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices I note from your HN profile that you have a number of professional connections to China. Perhaps it is in your personal interest to support the Chinese state? Given the other details of your background, it looks like you've probably benefited from living under regimes with much better human rights records than China's. I would encourage you to have compassion for people who are not born with the right to free expression, the right to practice their own religion, etc. and to recognize that China and Singapore are by no means the same.

ulfw 7y ago
You completely misinterpreted my small single sentence and misread my background too. I don't intend to discredit Singapore. AT ALL. I have high respect for Singapore as a nation and some of my best friends live there. I lived there for three years, founded a startup there. My "professional connections" to China are absolutely tiny in comparison and have nothing to do with my statement. Not everyone has political motives! I am also not picking sides for or against anyone, unlike what you seem to want to do and what you are trying to paint me as doing. The world isn't black or white.
- apatters 7y ago
  Your response is long on explanations of what a nice guy you are and how much you love Singapore, where your close business partners reside. All that however is immaterial to the observation that you've committed the fallacy of whataboutism, seemingly to discredit critics of China's human rights violations, which you've labeled as political - please consider that for many people the right to not have their organs harvested or be force fed pork is more than just politics. Respectfully I think this is a poor look for a business leader and graduate of America's elite universities. Or for anyone.

malka 7y ago

yeah, putting people in concentration camp because of their religion does not seem to buy them much credit. Weird.

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
Most Chinese Muslims are not Uyghur. The Chinese government doesn't care about its citizens being Muslim per se. The issues are actually quite different - separatism and a string terrorist attacks that caused a government crackdown.
- Grue3 7y ago
  The fact that it's ethnic, and not religious discrimination makes it even worse.
  - humanrebar 7y ago
    You're on your own on that one. Religious discrimination is just as bad. And even if you disagree, plenty of basically ethnic has been justified by superfluous religious differences.
  - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
    I don't know exactly what it's based on. It could be based on what websites people visit, or whether they attend mosques the government considers to be radical. The reporting on the issue leaves much to be desired.
- squiggleblaz 7y ago
  Separatism shouldn't be a crime, and the government crackdown is completely out of proportion with the terrorism that has occurred.
  - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
    I agree on both counts, but the reality is that in China, politically agitating for separatism is going to get you in very serious trouble. I find that in Western reporting, the actual issues involved in Xinjiang are not discussed at all. Instead, it's presented as if the Chinese government had a problem with Muslims. The entire issue of separatism is rarely mentioned, nor is the fact that the largest Muslim group in China is actually the Hui (rather than the Uyghurs). The media is not really trying to inform the public about the situation and underlying conflicts (e.g., the East Turkestan movement), and instead painting a vastly dumbed-down, cartoonish picture that serves other propaganda interests.