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I’m not totally sure I follow, are you saying most in (non-English, elite) India know that yoga isn’t really a Vedic practice and accept a syncretic history? Ad

I’m not totally sure I follow, are you saying most in (non-English, elite) India know that yoga isn’t really a Vedic practice and accept a syncretic history? Admittedly it’s hard to get a feel for that as a westerner when you see someone like Baba Ramdev hanging out with Modi and making anti-Muslim statements. Mainly I was originally saying I agree with you, that we need to be careful of who writes and rewrites history, because it typically is done by those in power and is often done without acknowledging the actual nuances of things. Yoga is certainly not Swedish gymnastics, but it’s also not some old Vedic thing with sole claim as Hindu.

thrwe4234safd 7y ago
People outside the westernized population don't know what "Vedism" and "Brahmanism" and all these other "deconstructed" monstrosities are, so the question itself is a bit loaded. In anycase, to answer your real question - no, its not a point of contention that Yoga (and Vipassana etc.) are the accumulation of the work of many gurus from radically different traditions of India. Since you're hopelessly caught within the webs of orientalist spiders, suffice it here to say - what you see of India is not India; it is but a description of what you see in terms of what you already know. Your description is neither India, and nor is it a reasonably accurate model of it.
- mindfulthrow1 7y ago
  “Since you're hopelessly caught within the webs of orientalist spiders, suffice it here to say - what you see of India is not India.” Well, I surely will never be able to have the same context as those that grew up in South Asia, like a bunch of my family, but I certainly hope I’m not hopeless! I’m open to any suggested reading you may have that I’m missing. Edit: I wanted to add that I’m very much aware that many of these divisions were made by the British, and even the Mughals before them, as a way to divide and dominate.
- eric234223 7y ago
  For western people(and also most of indians) who want to judge for themselves based only on verifiable facts should read http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/02.Annihilation%20of%20Caste.htm http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/02.Annihilation%20of%20Caste.h... to get the incentive model of hinduism and the varna system which is advocated by Vedism. Varna system is basically providing right to people based on birth. At the top of the hierarchy is the Brahmins(priests) . Most of the first generation hindus who you might encounter in America will be most likely to be Brahmins. This was because only Brahmins are allowed to get education according to varna system which was followed until Britishers came to india and setup schools for everyone. My great great grand fathers owned 600 acres of land but did not had any education. They were okay with it because the people at the bottom of the hierarchy are not allowed to own lands. The varna sytem is setup in such a way that by honoring it one gets more rights that the lower hierarchy but lesser than the higher hierarchy. At the top there was Brahmin(priests) who enjoyed all the rights and who had lot to lose with the fall of varna sytem. So that is the reason you can see all the Brahmins support Hinduism even if they dont believe in god.
  - threwr23423 7y ago
    > For western people(and also most of indians) who want to judge for themselves based only on verifiable facts. Sigh. Ambedkar's works are full of protestant rhetoric and very little "facts", and the tragedy of politicization of "caste" today is that saying something obvious like this out in India will almost instantly lead you to jail along with a non-returnable fine of $500-1000 (or worse). Ambedkar in AoC, says that while "endogamy" is the only real tenet of "varna system", and while widely prevalent the world over, was unique in India because it was religiously sanctioned by the "vedic religion". Yet, after 200 years of Sanskrit study, those who swear by this theory can't produce a single verse that supports this - all you get are Indology's "free-hand" translations which change temporally to support Europe's social theory de jour. Ambedkar himself in this work calls the "varna system" a useless system of endogamy, which produced racial mongrels, and was against the appreciable goal of eugenics. The stories just don't add up. Despite "caste system" being a "core" part of "vedic religion", it was somehow widely prevalent in Muslims and Christians (whose zealous violence in India is well documented). Despite the pyramidal "rigid" structure, "Brahmins" were often poor, and not only were there "Shudra" kings in Bharata, but many great men like AryaBhata were Shudras themselves. Indeed, when the British took over Madras, they found that most village schools were filled mostly with non-Brahmins [1]. The British even found that the schooling in Indian villages were much better than those in Britain themselves [1}. Modern works on this monstrous "caste system" show how hollow this field of study is - in fact, as many like Nicholas Dirks (U Berkeley) and S Balagangadhara (U Ghent) have shown, there is no such meaningful entity. There are communities and tribes like the world over, but there is no "ministry of caste deviations", nor was there ever such a thing manned by "Brahmin priests" denying people "salvation from hell". Such a "ministry of caste" was only formed during British times, because their form of jurisprudence could not comprehend the "evil pagan" Indian society, and they still insisted that all transactions pass through them (while they sucked India dry). It's a story sold by colonized idiots to their masters, in order to receive more funding and power. Indeed, since these powerful lobbies have secured nearly 50-90% of all positions in education, bureaucracy and soon private corporations, it's routine in India today to protest for "backwardness" status for one's community. It's a repeat of the discrimination of the Jewry in Europe - instead of explicit laws you just squeeze them out of the system. No wonder too, since Indology through its glorious history simultaneously demonized both the Jews while they appropriated India's literature, and the Brahmins, while they helped the Empire secure its roots. It's not surprising that those who speak about "caste" and "evils of Indian culture" are often the same people who will not touch the economic destruction, and consequent loss of status of the manufacturing/artisan communities of India, and often see the British as "angels descending onto India, with Christianity and God's language - English" I'd echo parent's comments - do read Ambedkar's work for yourself. The man is known for making insane theories - like "Shudras are Buddhists survivors of Hindu violence (who somehow had Hindu practices}" - and this rabble-rousing pamphlet is no different. Little wonder that he was supported by the British, much as they did the Dravidian movt. and the Muslim league on the eve of "Independence". [1.] The Beautiful Tree - Dharampal. https://archive.org/details/DharampalCollectedWritingsIn5Volumes/page/n4 https://archive.org/details/DharampalCollectedWritingsIn5Vol... (The original British surveys on Indian education from the 18th century are on archive.org somewhere; you should be able to source it}

thrwe4234safd 7y ago

People outside the westernized population don't know what "Vedism" and "Brahmanism" and all these other "deconstructed" monstrosities are, so the question itself is a bit loaded. In anycase, to answer your real question - no, its not a point of contention that Yoga (and Vipassana etc.) are the accumulation of the work of many gurus from radically different traditions of India. Since you're hopelessly caught within the webs of orientalist spiders, suffice it here to say - what you see of India is not India; it is but a description of what you see in terms of what you already know. Your description is neither India, and nor is it a reasonably accurate model of it.

mindfulthrow1 7y ago
“Since you're hopelessly caught within the webs of orientalist spiders, suffice it here to say - what you see of India is not India.” Well, I surely will never be able to have the same context as those that grew up in South Asia, like a bunch of my family, but I certainly hope I’m not hopeless! I’m open to any suggested reading you may have that I’m missing. Edit: I wanted to add that I’m very much aware that many of these divisions were made by the British, and even the Mughals before them, as a way to divide and dominate.
eric234223 7y ago
For western people(and also most of indians) who want to judge for themselves based only on verifiable facts should read http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/02.Annihilation%20of%20Caste.htm http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/02.Annihilation%20of%20Caste.h... to get the incentive model of hinduism and the varna system which is advocated by Vedism. Varna system is basically providing right to people based on birth. At the top of the hierarchy is the Brahmins(priests) . Most of the first generation hindus who you might encounter in America will be most likely to be Brahmins. This was because only Brahmins are allowed to get education according to varna system which was followed until Britishers came to india and setup schools for everyone. My great great grand fathers owned 600 acres of land but did not had any education. They were okay with it because the people at the bottom of the hierarchy are not allowed to own lands. The varna sytem is setup in such a way that by honoring it one gets more rights that the lower hierarchy but lesser than the higher hierarchy. At the top there was Brahmin(priests) who enjoyed all the rights and who had lot to lose with the fall of varna sytem. So that is the reason you can see all the Brahmins support Hinduism even if they dont believe in god.
- threwr23423 7y ago
  > For western people(and also most of indians) who want to judge for themselves based only on verifiable facts. Sigh. Ambedkar's works are full of protestant rhetoric and very little "facts", and the tragedy of politicization of "caste" today is that saying something obvious like this out in India will almost instantly lead you to jail along with a non-returnable fine of $500-1000 (or worse). Ambedkar in AoC, says that while "endogamy" is the only real tenet of "varna system", and while widely prevalent the world over, was unique in India because it was religiously sanctioned by the "vedic religion". Yet, after 200 years of Sanskrit study, those who swear by this theory can't produce a single verse that supports this - all you get are Indology's "free-hand" translations which change temporally to support Europe's social theory de jour. Ambedkar himself in this work calls the "varna system" a useless system of endogamy, which produced racial mongrels, and was against the appreciable goal of eugenics. The stories just don't add up. Despite "caste system" being a "core" part of "vedic religion", it was somehow widely prevalent in Muslims and Christians (whose zealous violence in India is well documented). Despite the pyramidal "rigid" structure, "Brahmins" were often poor, and not only were there "Shudra" kings in Bharata, but many great men like AryaBhata were Shudras themselves. Indeed, when the British took over Madras, they found that most village schools were filled mostly with non-Brahmins [1]. The British even found that the schooling in Indian villages were much better than those in Britain themselves [1}. Modern works on this monstrous "caste system" show how hollow this field of study is - in fact, as many like Nicholas Dirks (U Berkeley) and S Balagangadhara (U Ghent) have shown, there is no such meaningful entity. There are communities and tribes like the world over, but there is no "ministry of caste deviations", nor was there ever such a thing manned by "Brahmin priests" denying people "salvation from hell". Such a "ministry of caste" was only formed during British times, because their form of jurisprudence could not comprehend the "evil pagan" Indian society, and they still insisted that all transactions pass through them (while they sucked India dry). It's a story sold by colonized idiots to their masters, in order to receive more funding and power. Indeed, since these powerful lobbies have secured nearly 50-90% of all positions in education, bureaucracy and soon private corporations, it's routine in India today to protest for "backwardness" status for one's community. It's a repeat of the discrimination of the Jewry in Europe - instead of explicit laws you just squeeze them out of the system. No wonder too, since Indology through its glorious history simultaneously demonized both the Jews while they appropriated India's literature, and the Brahmins, while they helped the Empire secure its roots. It's not surprising that those who speak about "caste" and "evils of Indian culture" are often the same people who will not touch the economic destruction, and consequent loss of status of the manufacturing/artisan communities of India, and often see the British as "angels descending onto India, with Christianity and God's language - English" I'd echo parent's comments - do read Ambedkar's work for yourself. The man is known for making insane theories - like "Shudras are Buddhists survivors of Hindu violence (who somehow had Hindu practices}" - and this rabble-rousing pamphlet is no different. Little wonder that he was supported by the British, much as they did the Dravidian movt. and the Muslim league on the eve of "Independence". [1.] The Beautiful Tree - Dharampal. https://archive.org/details/DharampalCollectedWritingsIn5Volumes/page/n4 https://archive.org/details/DharampalCollectedWritingsIn5Vol... (The original British surveys on Indian education from the 18th century are on archive.org somewhere; you should be able to source it}