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“SOAS for instance has one guy who was anointed a Mahant, and he writes books with another guy who says Yoga is a cynical rebranding of Swedish exercises.” I’m

“SOAS for instance has one guy who was anointed a Mahant, and he writes books with another guy who says Yoga is a cynical rebranding of Swedish exercises.” I’m assuming you mean James Mallinson. I met him briefly in Jaipur and had been wondering who the white guy with dreadlocks was that I kept seeing around (here in the US it’s considered racist by people of color to wear dreads if you’re not black). To make a long story short, he doesn’t practice yoga, is largely a rich guy that likes the “sadhu lifestyle” (he’s a Baron in the UK), and studies ancient texts in the way a typical white academic would. But I will say for all my skepticism going into it, I read his “Roots of Yoga” and it was great. It’s clear that the practice of yoga is syncretic and means many different things to many different people. We definitely should criticize all the white girls in the west that are using Yoga as a brand for their calisthenics, teaching without knowing anything about pranayama or dhyana. Their style of practice is so far from any Hatha practice I’ve done you can’t even consider it the same thing. Most of those standing postures they do I’ve never encountered from my Hatha teachers. What these white western women are doing is for the most part awful and pretty racist. However, we should be equally skeptical of Hindutva making claims about what Yoga is while ignoring the long, syncretic history and how it grew and exchanged practices with Buddhists, Sufis, Jains, and all sorts of other sects and groups through thousands of years.

thrwe4234safd 7y ago
> However, we should be equally skeptical of Hindutva making claims about what Yoga is while ignoring the long, syncretic history and how it grew and exchanged practices with Buddhists, Sufis, Jains, and all sorts of other sects and groups through thousands of years. Non sequitur - this has never been a point of contention in India. I know this is typical of the press in the English-speaking world (and thus the peoples of these places as a whole), but its hilarious to see "Hindutva" being projected as a "Hinduism is supreme, and everything else must be suppressed" (and now all the propaganda with Nazis/Hitler ... my oh my). Criticisms of "Hindutva" from these sources are so insipid and stupid that they are not even worth acknowledging. (Note - I'd place a large portion of the Indian elite within the English speaking world.)
- mindfulthrow1 7y ago
  I’m not totally sure I follow, are you saying most in (non-English, elite) India know that yoga isn’t really a Vedic practice and accept a syncretic history? Admittedly it’s hard to get a feel for that as a westerner when you see someone like Baba Ramdev hanging out with Modi and making anti-Muslim statements. Mainly I was originally saying I agree with you, that we need to be careful of who writes and rewrites history, because it typically is done by those in power and is often done without acknowledging the actual nuances of things. Yoga is certainly not Swedish gymnastics, but it’s also not some old Vedic thing with sole claim as Hindu.
  - thrwe4234safd 7y ago
    People outside the westernized population don't know what "Vedism" and "Brahmanism" and all these other "deconstructed" monstrosities are, so the question itself is a bit loaded. In anycase, to answer your real question - no, its not a point of contention that Yoga (and Vipassana etc.) are the accumulation of the work of many gurus from radically different traditions of India. Since you're hopelessly caught within the webs of orientalist spiders, suffice it here to say - what you see of India is not India; it is but a description of what you see in terms of what you already know. Your description is neither India, and nor is it a reasonably accurate model of it.
    - mindfulthrow1 7y ago
      “Since you're hopelessly caught within the webs of orientalist spiders, suffice it here to say - what you see of India is not India.” Well, I surely will never be able to have the same context as those that grew up in South Asia, like a bunch of my family, but I certainly hope I’m not hopeless! I’m open to any suggested reading you may have that I’m missing. Edit: I wanted to add that I’m very much aware that many of these divisions were made by the British, and even the Mughals before them, as a way to divide and dominate.
    - eric234223 7y ago
      For western people(and also most of indians) who want to judge for themselves based only on verifiable facts should read http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/02.Annihilation%20of%20Caste.htm http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/02.Annihilation%20of%20Caste.h... to get the incentive model of hinduism and the varna system which is advocated by Vedism. Varna system is basically providing right to people based on birth. At the top of the hierarchy is the Brahmins(priests) . Most of the first generation hindus who you might encounter in America will be most likely to be Brahmins. This was because only Brahmins are allowed to get education according to varna system which was followed until Britishers came to india and setup schools for everyone. My great great grand fathers owned 600 acres of land but did not had any education. They were okay with it because the people at the bottom of the hierarchy are not allowed to own lands. The varna sytem is setup in such a way that by honoring it one gets more rights that the lower hierarchy but lesser than the higher hierarchy. At the top there was Brahmin(priests) who enjoyed all the rights and who had lot to lose with the fall of varna sytem. So that is the reason you can see all the Brahmins support Hinduism even if they dont believe in god.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
pergadad 7y ago
Why would doing yoga in a way that you consider 'wrong' as racist. That's an incredibly ignorant statement. There are hundreds if not more branches of hatha yoga, not to mention all the other kids of yoga. There is no racism in doing it this or that or a completely different way. You might criticise that they call it yoga, still it's not in any way racist. Please open your mind. Thank you, A fellow hatha yoga practitioner.
- mindfulthrow1 7y ago
  It’s not about the asana being “right” or “wrong”, and in many cases I’d say it doesn’t even matter what the asanas are in your practice, as long as they’re moving the practitioner towards dhyana. But would you not admit that there is a lot of cultural appropriation around yoga in the west? Girls on Instagram with “Namaslay” shirts and dream catchers and sanskrit tattoos? Taking, packaging, marketing, and selling things in this way is racist. Of course the modern practice of asana in the west isn’t inherently racist, and you don’t need to only be doing postures that were written down in old books. But wearing an Aum shirt and never understanding the deeper cultural contexts of what it is you’re wearing and practicing is racist. I’ve had conversations with people that have practiced yoga for years and literally have asked me “what’s asana?” and had never heard of pranayama. Were they racist? No, probably not, but it does speak volumes to how yoga is sold in the USA.
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    I don't think you should be using the word "racist" here. Seems people are culturally disinterested but "racist" is something else.

thrwe4234safd 7y ago

> However, we should be equally skeptical of Hindutva making claims about what Yoga is while ignoring the long, syncretic history and how it grew and exchanged practices with Buddhists, Sufis, Jains, and all sorts of other sects and groups through thousands of years. Non sequitur - this has never been a point of contention in India. I know this is typical of the press in the English-speaking world (and thus the peoples of these places as a whole), but its hilarious to see "Hindutva" being projected as a "Hinduism is supreme, and everything else must be suppressed" (and now all the propaganda with Nazis/Hitler ... my oh my). Criticisms of "Hindutva" from these sources are so insipid and stupid that they are not even worth acknowledging. (Note - I'd place a large portion of the Indian elite within the English speaking world.)

mindfulthrow1 7y ago
I’m not totally sure I follow, are you saying most in (non-English, elite) India know that yoga isn’t really a Vedic practice and accept a syncretic history? Admittedly it’s hard to get a feel for that as a westerner when you see someone like Baba Ramdev hanging out with Modi and making anti-Muslim statements. Mainly I was originally saying I agree with you, that we need to be careful of who writes and rewrites history, because it typically is done by those in power and is often done without acknowledging the actual nuances of things. Yoga is certainly not Swedish gymnastics, but it’s also not some old Vedic thing with sole claim as Hindu.
- thrwe4234safd 7y ago
  People outside the westernized population don't know what "Vedism" and "Brahmanism" and all these other "deconstructed" monstrosities are, so the question itself is a bit loaded. In anycase, to answer your real question - no, its not a point of contention that Yoga (and Vipassana etc.) are the accumulation of the work of many gurus from radically different traditions of India. Since you're hopelessly caught within the webs of orientalist spiders, suffice it here to say - what you see of India is not India; it is but a description of what you see in terms of what you already know. Your description is neither India, and nor is it a reasonably accurate model of it.
  - mindfulthrow1 7y ago
    “Since you're hopelessly caught within the webs of orientalist spiders, suffice it here to say - what you see of India is not India.” Well, I surely will never be able to have the same context as those that grew up in South Asia, like a bunch of my family, but I certainly hope I’m not hopeless! I’m open to any suggested reading you may have that I’m missing. Edit: I wanted to add that I’m very much aware that many of these divisions were made by the British, and even the Mughals before them, as a way to divide and dominate.
  - eric234223 7y ago
    For western people(and also most of indians) who want to judge for themselves based only on verifiable facts should read http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/02.Annihilation%20of%20Caste.htm http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/02.Annihilation%20of%20Caste.h... to get the incentive model of hinduism and the varna system which is advocated by Vedism. Varna system is basically providing right to people based on birth. At the top of the hierarchy is the Brahmins(priests) . Most of the first generation hindus who you might encounter in America will be most likely to be Brahmins. This was because only Brahmins are allowed to get education according to varna system which was followed until Britishers came to india and setup schools for everyone. My great great grand fathers owned 600 acres of land but did not had any education. They were okay with it because the people at the bottom of the hierarchy are not allowed to own lands. The varna sytem is setup in such a way that by honoring it one gets more rights that the lower hierarchy but lesser than the higher hierarchy. At the top there was Brahmin(priests) who enjoyed all the rights and who had lot to lose with the fall of varna sytem. So that is the reason you can see all the Brahmins support Hinduism even if they dont believe in god.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

pergadad 7y ago

Why would doing yoga in a way that you consider 'wrong' as racist. That's an incredibly ignorant statement. There are hundreds if not more branches of hatha yoga, not to mention all the other kids of yoga. There is no racism in doing it this or that or a completely different way. You might criticise that they call it yoga, still it's not in any way racist. Please open your mind. Thank you, A fellow hatha yoga practitioner.

mindfulthrow1 7y ago
It’s not about the asana being “right” or “wrong”, and in many cases I’d say it doesn’t even matter what the asanas are in your practice, as long as they’re moving the practitioner towards dhyana. But would you not admit that there is a lot of cultural appropriation around yoga in the west? Girls on Instagram with “Namaslay” shirts and dream catchers and sanskrit tattoos? Taking, packaging, marketing, and selling things in this way is racist. Of course the modern practice of asana in the west isn’t inherently racist, and you don’t need to only be doing postures that were written down in old books. But wearing an Aum shirt and never understanding the deeper cultural contexts of what it is you’re wearing and practicing is racist. I’ve had conversations with people that have practiced yoga for years and literally have asked me “what’s asana?” and had never heard of pranayama. Were they racist? No, probably not, but it does speak volumes to how yoga is sold in the USA.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  I don't think you should be using the word "racist" here. Seems people are culturally disinterested but "racist" is something else.