7 ms·

Mikhail Gorbachev’s Pizza Hut Thanksgiving Ad

95 points by smacktoward 7y ago

stanski 7y ago
It's bizarre to me how many people idealize Stalin; scary really. But it might just be a case of lack of education. I have no idea how Russian history books generally describe that period in their history.
- rudiv 7y ago
  It's bizarre to me that the British idealize Churchill. I wouldn't judge an Englishman for doing so, though, mostly because I can imagine that if I were in their stead I would be conflicted.
  - arethuza 7y ago
    Back in the 1940s a lot of people in the UK hated Churchill - certainly my father who had been in the RAF WW2 loathed him. He was seen as wanting to return the UK to the pre-war status-quo - which is most definitely not what a lot of people were fighting for and why Attlee's Labour government (which gave us the NHS) was voted in as soon as the war ended.
  - SapporoChris 7y ago
    Interesting, I had always heard him as being praised. A quick glance at Wikipedia shows some of the controversy. "Widely considered one of the 20th century's most significant figures, Churchill remains popular in the UK and Western world, where he is seen as a victorious wartime leader who played an important role in defending Europe's liberal democracy from the spread of fascism. Also praised as a social reformer and writer, among his many awards was the Nobel Prize in Literature. Conversely, his imperialist views and comments on race, as well as his sanctioning of human rights abuses in the suppression of anti-imperialist movements seeking independence from the British Empire, have generated considerable controversy." I guess it's always important to look outside your current 'bubble' and see what others think.
    - mirimir 7y ago
      Sure. But the UK actually lost the war. To the US.
    - Aloha 7y ago
      It's just like with FDR for conservatives - for most, his greatness as a wartime leader generally overpowers whatever bad he may or may not have done elsewhere. I'd argue that Stalin ought to be looked at in a similar (but perhaps less idealized) light.
    - vidarh 7y ago
      The sections on the Bengal famine gives a stronger indication of why he's so divisive.
  - green1 7y ago
    The British don't idealize Churchill, right-wing British and Americans do. He was not even that popular in his finest hour, as head of a cross-party coalition wartime government, being kicked out of office by the British people before the war had even ended and never once won the popular vote in any general election. Edit: Someone obviously doesn't like easily verifiable facts.
    - arethuza 7y ago
      He did win the 1951 general election: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_United_Kingdom_general_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_United_Kingdom_general_el...
      - green1 7y ago
        Yes, without winning the popular vote. From your link: Churchill: 13,717,851 Attlee: 13,948,385
        arethuza 7y ago
        That doesn't really count for anything in our election system.
        green1 7y ago
        The point was about Churchill's popularity in Britain (real vs myth), not the British electoral system.
    - orf 7y ago
      He’s an incredibly popular icon and often tops any historic figure polls in the UK. Election results after the second world war don’t really mean much to his legacy. He also had (so far) the last state funeral in the UK, lasting for 4 days, something that is usually reserved for royalty. His witticisms are often fondly repeated, and some of his most famous portions of his speeches are known to everyone in England. You also find some of his most famous pictures (cigar-toting v for victory) in a lot of places. That’s not to say people adore him or would dislike you for talking poorly of him, but it’s a much wider segment of the population than you suggest. It’s an interesting problem though. People are aware of his racism and more controversial actions, but the feeling is that it doesn’t really matter. For leading our country through a fight for its very survival, he gets a free pass, because who is to say that we’d be around to discuss winning WW2 if another man was in charge.
- belltaco 7y ago
  It's bizarre to me how many people idealize slave-owning founding fathers. But it might just be a case of lack of education. I have no idea how American history books generally describe that period in their history.
  - Aloha 7y ago
    They knew it was wrong - specifically Jefferson spoke out often on how wrong it was - yet he too was a slaveholder. That said, the political reality of 1789 meant that without Slavery in the constitution, there would have been no United States, the southern states would have split off and formed their own government. It was a left as an unresolved issue for future generations to resolve.
- Aloha 7y ago
  I have run into neo-stalinists.. who are not russian - its mildly disturbing.
- sakopov 7y ago
  As someone who grew up in Russia, I can say that (in my humble opinion) Russians, even older generations, didn't idealize Stalin. They just knew that the country always needed someone who put fear into people to stop stealing, bribing and corruption at every level of society, which has historically been a problem in Russia dating back to the Czars. Back in my teenager years I remember reading somewhere in Russian literature about an incident when Peter The Great was told that one of the governors (gubernators) of a Gubernia was caught stealing from treasury. Peter responded by saying something along the lines of "There are so many of them stealing I can't even execute them anymore because I won't have anyone left." So instead he implemented a law to excuse theft of certain amounts by local government officials. Wish I could find a source for this, but it was so striking that it stuck in my memory.
- dang 7y ago
  Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
jhfdbkofdcho 7y ago
Wow, I forgot what eat in pizza huts used to be like.
chopete 7y ago
>> “We always wanted the hero of the ad to eat the pizza,” Helbing said. >> Gorbachev held firm. “‘As the ex-leader, I just would not,’” Helbing recalled Gorbachev saying. It is not clear why he wouldn't do that.
- xwdv 7y ago
  Many world leaders or people of prominence are wary of eating anything on camera. The President of the United States is not allowed to be filmed eating on camera unless approved by the secret service.
  - lawlorino 7y ago
    Not trying to sound pernickity here but do you have a source on that? I find minor details like that really interesting and I couldn't think of good reasons why except PR, and if that was the only reason why would it be up to the secret service to decide? I tried Googling but couldn't find much.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      There's no way the Secret Service could enforce that rule. Freedom of the press applies - the best they can do is avoid having the President eat in public. Politicians looking goofy eating (eating pizza/hot dogs with a fork is a pretty common gaffe) has a long history. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/apr/19/photo-politicians-fear-of-them-eating-cameron-miliband-bacon-sandwich-hot-dog https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/apr/19/photo-p...
      - larnmar 7y ago
        The funny part is that Obama smoked through most of his presidency and no photos ever emerged.
        wardbradt 7y ago
        How do you know this?
aazaa 7y ago
The article links to another article that offers this quote from Gorbachev's recent book: > “When Vladimir Putin became president, he inherited chaos. ... I can’t imagine how one could act under the ‘textbook of democracy’ in these conditions to find a way out of an almost catastrophic situation. ... The president of the country had no other choice but to take decisive actions. Some of his actions were interpreted as authoritarian and part of society was critical toward them. … If the aim of authority is to create conditions for developing a strong modern democracy, then I’m ready to support the president even if I disagree with some of his individual actions and decisions.” https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/10/29/the-biggest-takeaways-from-former-soviet-leader-gorbachevs-new-book-a67955 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/10/29/the-biggest-takeaw... Has there been a single example in which a strongman government peacefully gave way to "strong modern democracy?" If anything it seems that strongman governments beget strongman governments. Eventually, something slips and all hell breaks loose. At that point the only way out is to find a leader willing to take decisive actions. And so on. One of the biggest problems with the peaceful transition idea seems to be corruption. The strongman necessarily breeds corruption because his form of government is incompatible with rule of law. So even if the top-level institutions undergo a superficial makeover, the underlying rot of corruption persists, forever standing in the way. Frustration with the whole reform experiment builds until some event causes popular frustration to boil over, ushering in the return of the strongman.
- spchampion2 7y ago
  > Has there been a single example in which a strongman government peacefully gave way to "strong modern democracy?" Spain - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_transition_to_democracy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_transition_to_democr... Czechoslovakia - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution There are others.
  - aazaa 7y ago
    Of the two, the case of Spain seems more in line with strongman government transition. In that case, King Juan Carlos I appears to have played a pivotal role in ending an attempted coup and ushering in the transition.
lucideer 7y ago
Recently watched Werner Herzog's Meeting Gorbachev; it's an oddly fawning portrait, but still very interesting and insightful (and ultimately quite sad, much like this article).
gorbachev 7y ago
I approve this ad.
gs7 7y ago
The ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9lvzzH0STw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9lvzzH0STw
- RyJones 7y ago
  Longer version: https://youtu.be/fgm14D1jHUw https://youtu.be/fgm14D1jHUw
  - IntelMiner 7y ago
    Pizza Hut coopting the fall of the Soviet Union in an ad makes my skin kind of crawl "Yeah we destabilized the politics and economy of a nation, but hey, we got pizza!"

95 points by smacktoward 7y ago

It's bizarre to me how many people idealize Stalin; scary really. But it might just be a case of lack of education. I have no idea how Russian history books generally describe that period in their history.

rudiv 7y ago
It's bizarre to me that the British idealize Churchill. I wouldn't judge an Englishman for doing so, though, mostly because I can imagine that if I were in their stead I would be conflicted.
- arethuza 7y ago
  Back in the 1940s a lot of people in the UK hated Churchill - certainly my father who had been in the RAF WW2 loathed him. He was seen as wanting to return the UK to the pre-war status-quo - which is most definitely not what a lot of people were fighting for and why Attlee's Labour government (which gave us the NHS) was voted in as soon as the war ended.
- SapporoChris 7y ago
  Interesting, I had always heard him as being praised. A quick glance at Wikipedia shows some of the controversy. "Widely considered one of the 20th century's most significant figures, Churchill remains popular in the UK and Western world, where he is seen as a victorious wartime leader who played an important role in defending Europe's liberal democracy from the spread of fascism. Also praised as a social reformer and writer, among his many awards was the Nobel Prize in Literature. Conversely, his imperialist views and comments on race, as well as his sanctioning of human rights abuses in the suppression of anti-imperialist movements seeking independence from the British Empire, have generated considerable controversy." I guess it's always important to look outside your current 'bubble' and see what others think.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    Sure. But the UK actually lost the war. To the US.
  - Aloha 7y ago
    It's just like with FDR for conservatives - for most, his greatness as a wartime leader generally overpowers whatever bad he may or may not have done elsewhere. I'd argue that Stalin ought to be looked at in a similar (but perhaps less idealized) light.
  - vidarh 7y ago
    The sections on the Bengal famine gives a stronger indication of why he's so divisive.
- green1 7y ago
  The British don't idealize Churchill, right-wing British and Americans do. He was not even that popular in his finest hour, as head of a cross-party coalition wartime government, being kicked out of office by the British people before the war had even ended and never once won the popular vote in any general election. Edit: Someone obviously doesn't like easily verifiable facts.
  - arethuza 7y ago
    He did win the 1951 general election: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_United_Kingdom_general_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_United_Kingdom_general_el...
    - green1 7y ago
      Yes, without winning the popular vote. From your link: Churchill: 13,717,851 Attlee: 13,948,385
      - arethuza 7y ago
        That doesn't really count for anything in our election system.
        green1 7y ago
        The point was about Churchill's popularity in Britain (real vs myth), not the British electoral system.
  - orf 7y ago
    He’s an incredibly popular icon and often tops any historic figure polls in the UK. Election results after the second world war don’t really mean much to his legacy. He also had (so far) the last state funeral in the UK, lasting for 4 days, something that is usually reserved for royalty. His witticisms are often fondly repeated, and some of his most famous portions of his speeches are known to everyone in England. You also find some of his most famous pictures (cigar-toting v for victory) in a lot of places. That’s not to say people adore him or would dislike you for talking poorly of him, but it’s a much wider segment of the population than you suggest. It’s an interesting problem though. People are aware of his racism and more controversial actions, but the feeling is that it doesn’t really matter. For leading our country through a fight for its very survival, he gets a free pass, because who is to say that we’d be around to discuss winning WW2 if another man was in charge.
belltaco 7y ago
It's bizarre to me how many people idealize slave-owning founding fathers. But it might just be a case of lack of education. I have no idea how American history books generally describe that period in their history.
- Aloha 7y ago
  They knew it was wrong - specifically Jefferson spoke out often on how wrong it was - yet he too was a slaveholder. That said, the political reality of 1789 meant that without Slavery in the constitution, there would have been no United States, the southern states would have split off and formed their own government. It was a left as an unresolved issue for future generations to resolve.
Aloha 7y ago
I have run into neo-stalinists.. who are not russian - its mildly disturbing.
sakopov 7y ago
As someone who grew up in Russia, I can say that (in my humble opinion) Russians, even older generations, didn't idealize Stalin. They just knew that the country always needed someone who put fear into people to stop stealing, bribing and corruption at every level of society, which has historically been a problem in Russia dating back to the Czars. Back in my teenager years I remember reading somewhere in Russian literature about an incident when Peter The Great was told that one of the governors (gubernators) of a Gubernia was caught stealing from treasury. Peter responded by saying something along the lines of "There are so many of them stealing I can't even execute them anymore because I won't have anyone left." So instead he implemented a law to excuse theft of certain amounts by local government officials. Wish I could find a source for this, but it was so striking that it stuck in my memory.
dang 7y ago
Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

jhfdbkofdcho 7y ago

Wow, I forgot what eat in pizza huts used to be like.

chopete 7y ago

>> “We always wanted the hero of the ad to eat the pizza,” Helbing said. >> Gorbachev held firm. “‘As the ex-leader, I just would not,’” Helbing recalled Gorbachev saying. It is not clear why he wouldn't do that.

xwdv 7y ago
Many world leaders or people of prominence are wary of eating anything on camera. The President of the United States is not allowed to be filmed eating on camera unless approved by the secret service.
- lawlorino 7y ago
  Not trying to sound pernickity here but do you have a source on that? I find minor details like that really interesting and I couldn't think of good reasons why except PR, and if that was the only reason why would it be up to the secret service to decide? I tried Googling but couldn't find much.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    There's no way the Secret Service could enforce that rule. Freedom of the press applies - the best they can do is avoid having the President eat in public. Politicians looking goofy eating (eating pizza/hot dogs with a fork is a pretty common gaffe) has a long history. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/apr/19/photo-politicians-fear-of-them-eating-cameron-miliband-bacon-sandwich-hot-dog https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/apr/19/photo-p...
    - larnmar 7y ago
      The funny part is that Obama smoked through most of his presidency and no photos ever emerged.
      - wardbradt 7y ago
        How do you know this?

aazaa 7y ago

The article links to another article that offers this quote from Gorbachev's recent book: > “When Vladimir Putin became president, he inherited chaos. ... I can’t imagine how one could act under the ‘textbook of democracy’ in these conditions to find a way out of an almost catastrophic situation. ... The president of the country had no other choice but to take decisive actions. Some of his actions were interpreted as authoritarian and part of society was critical toward them. … If the aim of authority is to create conditions for developing a strong modern democracy, then I’m ready to support the president even if I disagree with some of his individual actions and decisions.” https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/10/29/the-biggest-takeaways-from-former-soviet-leader-gorbachevs-new-book-a67955 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/10/29/the-biggest-takeaw... Has there been a single example in which a strongman government peacefully gave way to "strong modern democracy?" If anything it seems that strongman governments beget strongman governments. Eventually, something slips and all hell breaks loose. At that point the only way out is to find a leader willing to take decisive actions. And so on. One of the biggest problems with the peaceful transition idea seems to be corruption. The strongman necessarily breeds corruption because his form of government is incompatible with rule of law. So even if the top-level institutions undergo a superficial makeover, the underlying rot of corruption persists, forever standing in the way. Frustration with the whole reform experiment builds until some event causes popular frustration to boil over, ushering in the return of the strongman.

spchampion2 7y ago
> Has there been a single example in which a strongman government peacefully gave way to "strong modern democracy?" Spain - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_transition_to_democracy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_transition_to_democr... Czechoslovakia - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution There are others.
- aazaa 7y ago
  Of the two, the case of Spain seems more in line with strongman government transition. In that case, King Juan Carlos I appears to have played a pivotal role in ending an attempted coup and ushering in the transition.

lucideer 7y ago

Recently watched Werner Herzog's Meeting Gorbachev; it's an oddly fawning portrait, but still very interesting and insightful (and ultimately quite sad, much like this article).

gorbachev 7y ago

I approve this ad.

gs7 7y ago

The ad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9lvzzH0STw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9lvzzH0STw

RyJones 7y ago
Longer version: https://youtu.be/fgm14D1jHUw https://youtu.be/fgm14D1jHUw
- IntelMiner 7y ago
  Pizza Hut coopting the fall of the Soviet Union in an ad makes my skin kind of crawl "Yeah we destabilized the politics and economy of a nation, but hey, we got pizza!"