4 ms·

Finally..... Me, yesterday : https://github.com/tensorflow/tensorflow/issues/30638#issuecomment-559201634 https://github.com/tensorflow/tensorflow/issues/30638

Finally..... Me, yesterday : https://github.com/tensorflow/tensorflow/issues/30638#issuecomment-559201634 https://github.com/tensorflow/tensorflow/issues/30638#issuec...

rvz 7y ago
> Can't bloody nvidia just open source everything. Those managers should be hanged. Wasted way too much time on this. As much as I want NVIDIA to open-source their drivers, they won't because of the same reasons the Raspberry Pi guys won't open-source their bootloader; they have to protect their IP. To us it is a triumphant revelation to the 'open-source' community if they open-source their drivers, but in reality, to them it is absolutely 'treasonous' for someone in the company to open-source them as it is essentially risks their IP being stolen or fully reverse-engineered from a 1:1 reference to the original code. Not as simple as it sounds to just 'open-source' something like drivers does it?
- Hello71 7y ago
  and AMD has no IP?
- bgorman 7y ago
  The claims about their IP being stolen are not credible. For one, AMD has an open source graphics stack and none of their IP has been stolen. Furthermore, Nvidia actually has pretty good support for nouveau (open source driver) on the Tegra line. Nvidia's real IP has not been compromised. Nvidia had to provide good open source support because the automotive industry wants guarantees that hardware will be able to run modern kernels many years in the future. Open sourcing/upstreaming the device drivers has business value because it means the actual devices sold will be supported by Linux until they are truly obsolete. (Think i368) Device drivers are not sexy, all they do is setup/shutdown hardware and provide hooks for the operating system to make system calls work. This is not core IP, kernel drivers are the bare minimum to enable hardware to be useful. The real reason Nvidia doesn't want to open source it's device drivers is because it would cost money to do so. It would likely require a total rewrite, and Nvidias current driver presumably shares code between platforms with a shim that only Nvidia knows about. If everyone used Linux Nvidia would probably have open source drivers for workstations (like they do for embedded)
  - bitL 7y ago
    AMD is playing catch up, being far away from NVidia; the strategy is to open its stack so that people like you jump on the bandwagon and do exactly what you are doing, i.e. complaining about closed nature of the GPGPU computing NVidia created and cultivated. The same complaints as with Intel on MKL, i.e. AMD ignoring that market completely and then fans suddenly waking up and complaining everywhere. As we see with new Threadripper, once they are dominant they change their attitudes quickly. The only thing we as customers can do is to vote with our wallets and strategically support whoever does more sensible stuff, playing companies against each other.
    - ahartmetz 7y ago
      What did AMD do with Threadripper? Raise prices to 70% of Intel's after Intel lowered theirs? Sure AMD is "just another company" but they have years to go until they can afford to get lazy and use exclusion tactics.
    - hgoel 7y ago
      I don't think you know what you're talking about, at all.
    - girvo 7y ago
      I’m genuinely uncertain as to what you’re complaining about re. AMD
      - bitL 7y ago
        They had my sympathies as they were on the verge of bankruptcy multiple times in the past decade; it's logical CUDA and MKL passed by and they couldn't react due to a lack of funds. However all the fanboys have to realize that building CUDA or MKL takes many talented/expensive developers/other personnel and obviously companies want to keep markets they created with them. And now with TR3 basically aiming for total high end, completely bypassing existing x399 and offering no "lower core number" versions of TR3, it's just a CPU for elite, not for regular folks, which never happened with AMD before and I view it as a worrying shift.
rrss 7y ago
Genuine question: how would open sourcing help with that compatibility issue? Open source software is nice, but doesn't magically make all compatibility problems go away.

Finally..... Me, yesterday : https://github.com/tensorflow/tensorflow/issues/30638#issuecomment-559201634 https://github.com/tensorflow/tensorflow/issues/30638#issuec...

rvz 7y ago

> Can't bloody nvidia just open source everything. Those managers should be hanged. Wasted way too much time on this. As much as I want NVIDIA to open-source their drivers, they won't because of the same reasons the Raspberry Pi guys won't open-source their bootloader; they have to protect their IP. To us it is a triumphant revelation to the 'open-source' community if they open-source their drivers, but in reality, to them it is absolutely 'treasonous' for someone in the company to open-source them as it is essentially risks their IP being stolen or fully reverse-engineered from a 1:1 reference to the original code. Not as simple as it sounds to just 'open-source' something like drivers does it?

Hello71 7y ago
and AMD has no IP?
bgorman 7y ago
The claims about their IP being stolen are not credible. For one, AMD has an open source graphics stack and none of their IP has been stolen. Furthermore, Nvidia actually has pretty good support for nouveau (open source driver) on the Tegra line. Nvidia's real IP has not been compromised. Nvidia had to provide good open source support because the automotive industry wants guarantees that hardware will be able to run modern kernels many years in the future. Open sourcing/upstreaming the device drivers has business value because it means the actual devices sold will be supported by Linux until they are truly obsolete. (Think i368) Device drivers are not sexy, all they do is setup/shutdown hardware and provide hooks for the operating system to make system calls work. This is not core IP, kernel drivers are the bare minimum to enable hardware to be useful. The real reason Nvidia doesn't want to open source it's device drivers is because it would cost money to do so. It would likely require a total rewrite, and Nvidias current driver presumably shares code between platforms with a shim that only Nvidia knows about. If everyone used Linux Nvidia would probably have open source drivers for workstations (like they do for embedded)
- bitL 7y ago
  AMD is playing catch up, being far away from NVidia; the strategy is to open its stack so that people like you jump on the bandwagon and do exactly what you are doing, i.e. complaining about closed nature of the GPGPU computing NVidia created and cultivated. The same complaints as with Intel on MKL, i.e. AMD ignoring that market completely and then fans suddenly waking up and complaining everywhere. As we see with new Threadripper, once they are dominant they change their attitudes quickly. The only thing we as customers can do is to vote with our wallets and strategically support whoever does more sensible stuff, playing companies against each other.
  - ahartmetz 7y ago
    What did AMD do with Threadripper? Raise prices to 70% of Intel's after Intel lowered theirs? Sure AMD is "just another company" but they have years to go until they can afford to get lazy and use exclusion tactics.
  - hgoel 7y ago
    I don't think you know what you're talking about, at all.
  - girvo 7y ago
    I’m genuinely uncertain as to what you’re complaining about re. AMD
    - bitL 7y ago
      They had my sympathies as they were on the verge of bankruptcy multiple times in the past decade; it's logical CUDA and MKL passed by and they couldn't react due to a lack of funds. However all the fanboys have to realize that building CUDA or MKL takes many talented/expensive developers/other personnel and obviously companies want to keep markets they created with them. And now with TR3 basically aiming for total high end, completely bypassing existing x399 and offering no "lower core number" versions of TR3, it's just a CPU for elite, not for regular folks, which never happened with AMD before and I view it as a worrying shift.

rrss 7y ago

Genuine question: how would open sourcing help with that compatibility issue? Open source software is nice, but doesn't magically make all compatibility problems go away.