4 ms·

It's called the "I never bothered to learn the actual fare from a local friend" tax. I don't agree with it, but it's pretty trivial to get around. It's definite

by yipbub 7y ago

It's called the "I never bothered to learn the actual fare from a local friend" tax. I don't agree with it, but it's pretty trivial to get around. It's definitely not exclusive to Indians. “taking advantage of foreigners is ok because they have the money” is not something most people believe. There is a large population that lives below the poverty line and will overcharge anyone who can and will take it. Yes, we have a big cleanliness problem, but that's an extension of our poverty problem. We have a lot of people who's concern is providing for the family instead of fulfillment. It's not hard to see why that's not a priority for them. We are stuck here because British colonization, theft, and messy departure left us poorer, with broken politics, and a corrupt bureaucracy. Still, that's an obstacle, not an excuse. We're improving. I see no country without problems. We have quite a few pristine and beautiful places where the locals care about their surroundings. Did you visit anywhere beyond the city you had business in?

ignoramous 7y ago
> Yes, we have a big cleanliness problem, but that's an extension of our poverty problem. Pls don't blame the poor. I have seen the educated, the rich have complete disregard for public property and cleanliness. > We are stuck here because British colonization. Also, don't blame the political incompetence and failing governance on the imperialists. They gave Indians the freedom to change the system in any which way they wanted, and this is what they ended up with, for better or for worse. If history is any indicator, the powerful and the corrpupt always find ways to game the system, as it were.
looping__lui 7y ago
I studied at an IIT in India for quite some time (loved the institution and the student body). I’ve seen more than most people I guess (from Ladakh to Mumbai to Varanasi). In places without tourists people were generally honest. The street vendor living off a few rupees each day for bananas would not take a rupee too much. I wish I could believe the “the dumb tourist tax is helping the needy and poor” - but it only fills the pockets of the (relatively) wealthy. It’s their sense of “entitlement to the money of these wasteful Westerners”. India and China (lived there for > 1 yr) were pretty much the same 25 yrs ago in terms of GDP and population. That was long after any British influence - yet both developed very differently. If I had to make a guess, it would be: how people treat family and society. As a foreigner, it seemed to me that Indians never care about society or anybody except their own family. In China, people are very focused on society and less on family. In India, people were mainly interested in their own immediate gain - in China they had some “boundaries” at least. Cleanliness is not “we can’t afford better” it is “people genuinely don’t care when it’s outside their house”. The slums in Mumbai were among the best organized and cleanest places I found in India. People cared because they had to and wanted to - not because they could afford. In India whenever I asked an official (police) for help or advice, they would sell me off to some relative. In China I never experienced that. I can’t generalize a couple of years abroad in different countries, but I would kind a take the guess that if you worked on actually “trying go make society work beyond immediate personal gain” things might look different in India. I have a complex relationship with India - because of many positive and negative experiences. As you continue to rip us foreigners and tourists off - we will stop spending money in your country. I’m tired of being accused to “be too dumb to inform myself” when the police and society are just rigged to steal from me because I am white and “look rich”. I am tired of being accused that the entire world is just taking advantage of Indians when the trading balance tells otherwise and it’s Indian people that care so little about each other. It was really sad and heartbreaking to see how in China pollution gets less and less whereas India really became “totally unbearable” in the recent years.
- eklavya 7y ago
  Yeah, no. India is a democracy, start with that.
  - looping__lui 7y ago
    I live in Europe so I’m generally happy with our political system. If I ever was to argue democracy is a bad idea - I would probably start with India as an example why it doesn’t work... I understand that personal preferences may vary and people on HN probably enjoy a good portion of China bashing; but if I had to chose - it would always be China over India for me. Healthcare, education, social mobility, equality between men and women, legal system: I can’t think of any reason why I would prefer India over China. I’m happy that thanks to Modi there now are toilets in India - but there is a lot to catch up still... China has lifted more people out of poverty than the rest of the world combined. In 2018, almost 1000 people got killed by police in the US. Not a great statistic either...
- yipbub 7y ago
  I agree that the attitude you're describing is the bane of India. We hate it too. The police steal from us too. We have strategies to adapt to its presence.
thrwe4234safd 7y ago
> There is a large population that lives below the poverty line and will overcharge anyone who can and will take it. Well, governments deem progressive taxation to be fair, and is hailed by economists and general populace all around the world, so perhaps faulting people for doing the same is not quite fair in the large scheme of things. However, it's just annoying, non-transparent and extremely frustrating.
Lucadg 7y ago
I've seen a shop owner in Gokarna cleaning very carefully the shop and then getting an icecream and throwing the paper right at his own doorstep. I've seen a lady in a second class train in Mumbai throwing plastic out of the window. And many other similar things. It's a cultural thing. Rome is dirty, milan is less and Munich is clean. It's cultural. Period.
- yipbub 7y ago
  Yes, it's partly cultural. It's also partly the Broken Window Syndrome[0]. People don't yet understand the value of keeping the surroundings clean. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
noncoml 7y ago
> It's called the "I never bothered to learn the actual fare from a local friend" tax. Victim blaming much?
hgoel 7y ago
You don't speak for me or most Indians when you claim that fleecing is okay because we were a colony 70+ years ago. Have some self-respect. Most of the people who participated in that AND most of those who were affected by it are old and/or dead. Where we are right now is entirely on us, and even if it weren't, the people in the UK owe us nothing.

by yipbub 7y ago

ignoramous 7y ago

> Yes, we have a big cleanliness problem, but that's an extension of our poverty problem. Pls don't blame the poor. I have seen the educated, the rich have complete disregard for public property and cleanliness. > We are stuck here because British colonization. Also, don't blame the political incompetence and failing governance on the imperialists. They gave Indians the freedom to change the system in any which way they wanted, and this is what they ended up with, for better or for worse. If history is any indicator, the powerful and the corrpupt always find ways to game the system, as it were.

looping__lui 7y ago

I studied at an IIT in India for quite some time (loved the institution and the student body). I’ve seen more than most people I guess (from Ladakh to Mumbai to Varanasi). In places without tourists people were generally honest. The street vendor living off a few rupees each day for bananas would not take a rupee too much. I wish I could believe the “the dumb tourist tax is helping the needy and poor” - but it only fills the pockets of the (relatively) wealthy. It’s their sense of “entitlement to the money of these wasteful Westerners”. India and China (lived there for > 1 yr) were pretty much the same 25 yrs ago in terms of GDP and population. That was long after any British influence - yet both developed very differently. If I had to make a guess, it would be: how people treat family and society. As a foreigner, it seemed to me that Indians never care about society or anybody except their own family. In China, people are very focused on society and less on family. In India, people were mainly interested in their own immediate gain - in China they had some “boundaries” at least. Cleanliness is not “we can’t afford better” it is “people genuinely don’t care when it’s outside their house”. The slums in Mumbai were among the best organized and cleanest places I found in India. People cared because they had to and wanted to - not because they could afford. In India whenever I asked an official (police) for help or advice, they would sell me off to some relative. In China I never experienced that. I can’t generalize a couple of years abroad in different countries, but I would kind a take the guess that if you worked on actually “trying go make society work beyond immediate personal gain” things might look different in India. I have a complex relationship with India - because of many positive and negative experiences. As you continue to rip us foreigners and tourists off - we will stop spending money in your country. I’m tired of being accused to “be too dumb to inform myself” when the police and society are just rigged to steal from me because I am white and “look rich”. I am tired of being accused that the entire world is just taking advantage of Indians when the trading balance tells otherwise and it’s Indian people that care so little about each other. It was really sad and heartbreaking to see how in China pollution gets less and less whereas India really became “totally unbearable” in the recent years.

eklavya 7y ago
Yeah, no. India is a democracy, start with that.
- looping__lui 7y ago
  I live in Europe so I’m generally happy with our political system. If I ever was to argue democracy is a bad idea - I would probably start with India as an example why it doesn’t work... I understand that personal preferences may vary and people on HN probably enjoy a good portion of China bashing; but if I had to chose - it would always be China over India for me. Healthcare, education, social mobility, equality between men and women, legal system: I can’t think of any reason why I would prefer India over China. I’m happy that thanks to Modi there now are toilets in India - but there is a lot to catch up still... China has lifted more people out of poverty than the rest of the world combined. In 2018, almost 1000 people got killed by police in the US. Not a great statistic either...
yipbub 7y ago
I agree that the attitude you're describing is the bane of India. We hate it too. The police steal from us too. We have strategies to adapt to its presence.

thrwe4234safd 7y ago

> There is a large population that lives below the poverty line and will overcharge anyone who can and will take it. Well, governments deem progressive taxation to be fair, and is hailed by economists and general populace all around the world, so perhaps faulting people for doing the same is not quite fair in the large scheme of things. However, it's just annoying, non-transparent and extremely frustrating.

Lucadg 7y ago

I've seen a shop owner in Gokarna cleaning very carefully the shop and then getting an icecream and throwing the paper right at his own doorstep. I've seen a lady in a second class train in Mumbai throwing plastic out of the window. And many other similar things. It's a cultural thing. Rome is dirty, milan is less and Munich is clean. It's cultural. Period.

yipbub 7y ago
Yes, it's partly cultural. It's also partly the Broken Window Syndrome[0]. People don't yet understand the value of keeping the surroundings clean. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

noncoml 7y ago

> It's called the "I never bothered to learn the actual fare from a local friend" tax. Victim blaming much?

hgoel 7y ago

You don't speak for me or most Indians when you claim that fleecing is okay because we were a colony 70+ years ago. Have some self-respect. Most of the people who participated in that AND most of those who were affected by it are old and/or dead. Where we are right now is entirely on us, and even if it weren't, the people in the UK owe us nothing.