3 ms·

I don't want to break your ideal, but the description of go you make died decades ago. For a long time now, top go has been about fighting in the chuban, and th

by pyrale 7y ago

I don't want to break your ideal, but the description of go you make died decades ago. For a long time now, top go has been about fighting in the chuban, and there is no grand theory about that, only grinding your mind to read more combinations than your opponent. Another correction about what you said is that computer go has brought tremendous evolutions to the pro scene. Josekis that were accepted for centuries have been challenged, and people have learned why. The value of sente has been emphasized, and pro players that have not learned are being pusshed out. In that aspect, computer go has brought change of a magnitude comparable to the shin fuseki movement. Finally, it is expected that the availability of strong programs will bring a wave of better players, much like what happened in chess. I for one look forward to this happening.

breatheoften 7y ago
Interesting - I definitely have only a surface understanding of the go community and had not respected that the community embraces the game’s “requirement to grind the combinations”. I had always thought there was some element of recognizing its “impossible to ever even remotely approach a true grinding of the combinations” for go — and that somehow players _did something else_ effectively when they played at a high level. It’s that “doing something else effectively” that the defeat of humanity by go algorithms challenges ... Would be super Interesting if there could ever be a reversal which might allow humanity to beat go algorithms once again ... is there any evidence from the strategies that the go community has learned by analyzing the new go algorithms that this could be possible? Or is there just more and more evidence over time than humans will never be able to compete effectively at go again?
- pyrale 7y ago
  It is indeed impossible to evaluate every possibility, especially for humans. Still, midgame fighting is all about evaluating as much as possible and to estimate an unfinished position. It is not imaginable now that humans will beat a machine in the future, but it is also undeniable that humans progressed from computer go. The evolution of joseki (game patterns considered fair for both players), especially corner joseki are material evidence of that.

by pyrale 7y ago

breatheoften 7y ago

Interesting - I definitely have only a surface understanding of the go community and had not respected that the community embraces the game’s “requirement to grind the combinations”. I had always thought there was some element of recognizing its “impossible to ever even remotely approach a true grinding of the combinations” for go — and that somehow players _did something else_ effectively when they played at a high level. It’s that “doing something else effectively” that the defeat of humanity by go algorithms challenges ... Would be super Interesting if there could ever be a reversal which might allow humanity to beat go algorithms once again ... is there any evidence from the strategies that the go community has learned by analyzing the new go algorithms that this could be possible? Or is there just more and more evidence over time than humans will never be able to compete effectively at go again?

pyrale 7y ago
It is indeed impossible to evaluate every possibility, especially for humans. Still, midgame fighting is all about evaluating as much as possible and to estimate an unfinished position. It is not imaginable now that humans will beat a machine in the future, but it is also undeniable that humans progressed from computer go. The evolution of joseki (game patterns considered fair for both players), especially corner joseki are material evidence of that.