7 ms·

If you're still on Win 7, presumably you are very change averse. Or you depend on software that doesn't work any more on Win10. Those are the only obvious reaso

If you're still on Win 7, presumably you are very change averse. Or you depend on software that doesn't work any more on Win10. Those are the only obvious reasons that come to mind. In either case, switching to Linux would be the worst case scenario, and significantly worse than upgrading to Win10. .

bgorman 7y ago
Linux might have better device driver support than Windows 10.
- Hydraulix989 7y ago
  That's definitely not true if you're using an NVIDIA GPU.
  - SXX 7y ago
    I'm not a big fan of proprietary software in general, but to be honest Nvidia proprietary driver is decent software as long as it's not laptop and you're running stable distribution.
    - noodlesUK 7y ago
      Annoyingly this is relatively true. Nvidia’s driver works very well for servers and desktops, but the moment you’re on a laptop or you want to use Wayland you’re totally fucked. I have a dell precision with a quadro p2000 that I’ve owned for two years, and only last month has it become properly supported by Nvidia’s driver. Secure boot is also a massive problem (which can be sorta solved with MOKutil, but it’s messy)
  - HansHamster 7y ago
    I'm really curious why so many people complain about Nvidia GPUs under linux. I've been running several Nvidia cards under linux over the last 10+ years without any serious issues. Back in the day Nvidia was really the only option and Fglrx was a total mess (So it's really nice to see how AMD cards under linux are now coming along...). And I don't have the impression that the quality has gone down over the years. But is it because many distros don't ship with the Nvidia drivers and then people run into issues with Nouveau, or break something by installing the closed source driver manually or from a 3rd party repository and then get incompatible/broken libraries, wrong kernel versions and stuff like that? Or is there really something wrong with the drivers themselves? (let's ignore optimus...)
    - SahAssar 7y ago
      The Nvidia drivers are closed source, the AMD drivers are open source. The open source alternative to Nvidia drivers is not up to date or feature complete as it is not built by the company building the cards. If you want open software you need FOSS. Nvidia is not even close to FOSS. AMD is closer to FOSS.
      - HansHamster 7y ago
        Sure, but closed vs FOSS was not really my point. Just because it's closed doesn't mean the driver is bad from a purely technical/functional point of view and for many people that might be enough. The parent sounded like Nvidia GPUs just don't work well under Linux, and from my experience that's just not the case. And the open AMD drivers took many years to get to the level they are now. Technical issues with Nvidia I can think of are the EGLStreams with Wayland and Optimus.
      - greenhatman 7y ago
        Nvidia on Linux. Nothing to do with FOSS. I'm running the closed source Nvidia drivers and everything runs 100%. I can run most games as well.
    - Hydraulix989 7y ago
      Why ignore Optimus for no sane reason except for the very reason that it is convenient for your argument? That's the real elephant in the room and it affects nearly every single laptop with an NVIDIA GPU in it! Btw, have you tried using Wayland? """ Only the first two [standard graphics APIs] are implemented by the Nvidia proprietary driver. In order to support Nvidia, Wayland compositors need to add code resembling this: if (nvidia proprietary driver) { /* several thousand lines of code / } else { / several thousand lines of code */ } """ From: https://drewdevault.com/2019/02/10/Wayland-misconceptions-debunked.html https://drewdevault.com/2019/02/10/Wayland-misconceptions-de...
  - bgorman 7y ago
    I am talking about "old" hardware that is no longer supported on Windows. The Linux kernel does not intentionally remove support for working hardware. Do you think you could get a Geforce 2 working on Windows 10? You could get it working on the latest version of Linux thanks to open source drivers (albeit reverse engineered).
    - Hydraulix989 7y ago
      I remember floppy drive drivers and 386 processor support going away recently. https://itsfoss.com/end-of-floppy-disk-in-linux/ https://itsfoss.com/end-of-floppy-disk-in-linux/
guelo 7y ago
I'm on Windows 7 because I think it has a superior UI and because I feel it is under my control whereas Win10 is under Microsoft's control.
acqq 7y ago
I have some computers where I've tried both an upgrade to Windows 10 and a switch to Linux. Both have similar problems, like trackpad not working, WLAN not working, in both cases because they only worked properly with Windows 7 drivers, so I'll keep them on Windows 7 even after Jan 2020 (I hope, at least). I just don't expect to use them for any surfing -- they will remain to be the backup machines for the tasks that don't involve browsers. They are anyway already struggling with the modern ad-laden web pages. In case I'll need surfing, maybe I'll install a VM with Linux only for that purpose, avoiding the driver issues... And the irony was, Microsoft's "upgrade to Windows 10" program claimed they will be OK. Only afterwards, running 10, the old drivers misbehave, and the newer simply don't exist. And it's not that the hardware producer is some small company, it's Intel who doesn't want to produce newer updates of their drivers for their older hardware. The another irony is that the Linux also has driver and desktop performance problems, resulting in WLAN not working but also local videos stuttering, if they are using more modern codecs and higher resolution: mplayer running on Windows manages to play the same videos OK which the mplayer on Linux plays unstable. So it's still https://xkcd.com/619/ https://xkcd.com/619/ "but who uses that?" even when striking out the flash word. On such desktops, VM with Linux will work, but don't expect miracles for demanding content.
thenewnewguy 7y ago
Or there's option 3, which is the reason that I've had several people give me: you don't like Windows 10, because of the spying/forced updates/etc. I've converted several of these people to linux and they've been very happy with it.
- umvi 7y ago
  Or option 4, which is you signed up for the W10 update, but then it never materialized. So you are still on Windows 7 and there is still an icon in the tray telling you to reserve your free copy of W10.
  - Splognosticus 7y ago
    Or option 4a, where like me you have it but for whatever reason it bluescreens with an unhelpfully generic error on first boot.
  - mmphosis 7y ago
    Or option 5, the update is still running and I can't turn off my computer.
- zionic 7y ago
  Didn't they port most of the telemetry to Win7?
  - windsurfer 7y ago
    Yes but you were not forced to install those updates.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
  Hard to know for sure, but I doubt that more than a tiny fraction of win 7 users are on it for this reason.
windsurfer 7y ago
The privacy issues in Windows 8/10 are a bit scary for some, so if you want to do gaming Windows 7 is your best choice.
- AdeptusAquinas 7y ago
  Any game you play, particularly the ones running through distribution platforms like Steam, is wired up with enough telemetry that it would make Windows 10 blush. And they run with full privilege a lot of the time, too. So if you are on Windows 7 'for privacy considerations', but use it as a gaming machine, then I have a bridge to sell you.
- gruez 7y ago
  >so if you want to do gaming Windows 7 is your best choice. maybe for next year or so. For one, it's reaching EOL so no security patches. There's extended support to 2023 but it costs $$$ and it's uncertain how reliably you could pirate it. Even if you ignore security patches, you're going to have to deal with developers dropping support for windows 7, so there are going to be more and more games that require windows 10, and getting updated graphics drivers might be tricky.
- DarmokJalad1701 7y ago
  Not really. There are games that actually do not work on Windows 7 anymore. Also, there are things like the Vive Wireless VR adapter that works only with Windows 10.
yabadabadoes 7y ago
> Or you depend on software that doesn't work any more on Win10. I was hoping this would be about WINE.. I've seen old software run better/safer in WINE than Windows, but I'm hesitant to get involved in recommending anything to people with legacy software problems. There is virtually no upside..
foofoo55 7y ago
We have a couple of printers and scanners which have no manufacturer support after Win7 and thus require a generic feature-limited driver under Win10. Control of privacy, auto-updates, and MS crapware is very difficult under the moving goalposts of Win10. Cost to shift to Win10 is high in terms of training, switching over software, dealing with new drivers, and undoing undesirable changes with each update; meanwhile end-user benefit ranges from negative to slightly positive, depending who's measuring. I agree that switching to Linux would be worse than Win10, before even considering all the Win-only software.

bgorman 7y ago

Linux might have better device driver support than Windows 10.

Hydraulix989 7y ago
That's definitely not true if you're using an NVIDIA GPU.
- SXX 7y ago
  I'm not a big fan of proprietary software in general, but to be honest Nvidia proprietary driver is decent software as long as it's not laptop and you're running stable distribution.
  - noodlesUK 7y ago
    Annoyingly this is relatively true. Nvidia’s driver works very well for servers and desktops, but the moment you’re on a laptop or you want to use Wayland you’re totally fucked. I have a dell precision with a quadro p2000 that I’ve owned for two years, and only last month has it become properly supported by Nvidia’s driver. Secure boot is also a massive problem (which can be sorta solved with MOKutil, but it’s messy)
- HansHamster 7y ago
  I'm really curious why so many people complain about Nvidia GPUs under linux. I've been running several Nvidia cards under linux over the last 10+ years without any serious issues. Back in the day Nvidia was really the only option and Fglrx was a total mess (So it's really nice to see how AMD cards under linux are now coming along...). And I don't have the impression that the quality has gone down over the years. But is it because many distros don't ship with the Nvidia drivers and then people run into issues with Nouveau, or break something by installing the closed source driver manually or from a 3rd party repository and then get incompatible/broken libraries, wrong kernel versions and stuff like that? Or is there really something wrong with the drivers themselves? (let's ignore optimus...)
  - SahAssar 7y ago
    The Nvidia drivers are closed source, the AMD drivers are open source. The open source alternative to Nvidia drivers is not up to date or feature complete as it is not built by the company building the cards. If you want open software you need FOSS. Nvidia is not even close to FOSS. AMD is closer to FOSS.
    - HansHamster 7y ago
      Sure, but closed vs FOSS was not really my point. Just because it's closed doesn't mean the driver is bad from a purely technical/functional point of view and for many people that might be enough. The parent sounded like Nvidia GPUs just don't work well under Linux, and from my experience that's just not the case. And the open AMD drivers took many years to get to the level they are now. Technical issues with Nvidia I can think of are the EGLStreams with Wayland and Optimus.
    - greenhatman 7y ago
      Nvidia on Linux. Nothing to do with FOSS. I'm running the closed source Nvidia drivers and everything runs 100%. I can run most games as well.
  - Hydraulix989 7y ago
    Why ignore Optimus for no sane reason except for the very reason that it is convenient for your argument? That's the real elephant in the room and it affects nearly every single laptop with an NVIDIA GPU in it! Btw, have you tried using Wayland? """ Only the first two [standard graphics APIs] are implemented by the Nvidia proprietary driver. In order to support Nvidia, Wayland compositors need to add code resembling this: if (nvidia proprietary driver) { /* several thousand lines of code / } else { / several thousand lines of code */ } """ From: https://drewdevault.com/2019/02/10/Wayland-misconceptions-debunked.html https://drewdevault.com/2019/02/10/Wayland-misconceptions-de...
- bgorman 7y ago
  I am talking about "old" hardware that is no longer supported on Windows. The Linux kernel does not intentionally remove support for working hardware. Do you think you could get a Geforce 2 working on Windows 10? You could get it working on the latest version of Linux thanks to open source drivers (albeit reverse engineered).
  - Hydraulix989 7y ago
    I remember floppy drive drivers and 386 processor support going away recently. https://itsfoss.com/end-of-floppy-disk-in-linux/ https://itsfoss.com/end-of-floppy-disk-in-linux/

guelo 7y ago

I'm on Windows 7 because I think it has a superior UI and because I feel it is under my control whereas Win10 is under Microsoft's control.

acqq 7y ago

I have some computers where I've tried both an upgrade to Windows 10 and a switch to Linux. Both have similar problems, like trackpad not working, WLAN not working, in both cases because they only worked properly with Windows 7 drivers, so I'll keep them on Windows 7 even after Jan 2020 (I hope, at least). I just don't expect to use them for any surfing -- they will remain to be the backup machines for the tasks that don't involve browsers. They are anyway already struggling with the modern ad-laden web pages. In case I'll need surfing, maybe I'll install a VM with Linux only for that purpose, avoiding the driver issues... And the irony was, Microsoft's "upgrade to Windows 10" program claimed they will be OK. Only afterwards, running 10, the old drivers misbehave, and the newer simply don't exist. And it's not that the hardware producer is some small company, it's Intel who doesn't want to produce newer updates of their drivers for their older hardware. The another irony is that the Linux also has driver and desktop performance problems, resulting in WLAN not working but also local videos stuttering, if they are using more modern codecs and higher resolution: mplayer running on Windows manages to play the same videos OK which the mplayer on Linux plays unstable. So it's still https://xkcd.com/619/ https://xkcd.com/619/ "but who uses that?" even when striking out the flash word. On such desktops, VM with Linux will work, but don't expect miracles for demanding content.

thenewnewguy 7y ago

Or there's option 3, which is the reason that I've had several people give me: you don't like Windows 10, because of the spying/forced updates/etc. I've converted several of these people to linux and they've been very happy with it.

umvi 7y ago
Or option 4, which is you signed up for the W10 update, but then it never materialized. So you are still on Windows 7 and there is still an icon in the tray telling you to reserve your free copy of W10.
- Splognosticus 7y ago
  Or option 4a, where like me you have it but for whatever reason it bluescreens with an unhelpfully generic error on first boot.
- mmphosis 7y ago
  Or option 5, the update is still running and I can't turn off my computer.
zionic 7y ago
Didn't they port most of the telemetry to Win7?
- windsurfer 7y ago
  Yes but you were not forced to install those updates.
asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
Hard to know for sure, but I doubt that more than a tiny fraction of win 7 users are on it for this reason.

windsurfer 7y ago

The privacy issues in Windows 8/10 are a bit scary for some, so if you want to do gaming Windows 7 is your best choice.

AdeptusAquinas 7y ago
Any game you play, particularly the ones running through distribution platforms like Steam, is wired up with enough telemetry that it would make Windows 10 blush. And they run with full privilege a lot of the time, too. So if you are on Windows 7 'for privacy considerations', but use it as a gaming machine, then I have a bridge to sell you.
gruez 7y ago
>so if you want to do gaming Windows 7 is your best choice. maybe for next year or so. For one, it's reaching EOL so no security patches. There's extended support to 2023 but it costs $$$ and it's uncertain how reliably you could pirate it. Even if you ignore security patches, you're going to have to deal with developers dropping support for windows 7, so there are going to be more and more games that require windows 10, and getting updated graphics drivers might be tricky.
DarmokJalad1701 7y ago
Not really. There are games that actually do not work on Windows 7 anymore. Also, there are things like the Vive Wireless VR adapter that works only with Windows 10.

yabadabadoes 7y ago

> Or you depend on software that doesn't work any more on Win10. I was hoping this would be about WINE.. I've seen old software run better/safer in WINE than Windows, but I'm hesitant to get involved in recommending anything to people with legacy software problems. There is virtually no upside..

foofoo55 7y ago

We have a couple of printers and scanners which have no manufacturer support after Win7 and thus require a generic feature-limited driver under Win10. Control of privacy, auto-updates, and MS crapware is very difficult under the moving goalposts of Win10. Cost to shift to Win10 is high in terms of training, switching over software, dealing with new drivers, and undoing undesirable changes with each update; meanwhile end-user benefit ranges from negative to slightly positive, depending who's measuring. I agree that switching to Linux would be worse than Win10, before even considering all the Win-only software.