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> How many gasoline vehicles spontaneously burst into flame? Ford recalled 8.7 million cars for spontaneous fire risk.[1] And that's just one case. It happen

> How many gasoline vehicles spontaneously burst into flame? Ford recalled 8.7 million cars for spontaneous fire risk.[1] And that's just one case. It happens more often than you'd think, and coverage of it in media tends to be subdued. Automotive is the largest source of advertising dollars for many media markets. [1] https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-04-26-mn-63066-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-04-26-mn-63066-...

OnlineGladiator 7y ago
Comparing modern technology with decades old technology and claiming it's a fair comparison for safety standards is wildly disingenuous. How many modern vehicles spontaneously burst into flame? I could easily believe it's orders of magnitude larger than for Teslas, but when you make comparisons like you did it just discredits your entire argument.
- jhayward 7y ago
  Ok, I provided one example. It's on you to prove the point then. Please provide relevant facts proving your case. Prove my point is wrong. Oh, and the majority of present-day ignitions in automobiles are still the exact same mechanical interlock switching types used since the 60's. Higher-end vehicles have solid state switching, but it's not the majority of vehicles. Also: https://abcnews.go.com/US/bmw-recalls-million-vehicles-fire-risk/story?id=50922136 https://abcnews.go.com/US/bmw-recalls-million-vehicles-fire-...
  - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
    You made a claim, not me. I just said your argument is flawed. I didn't say you're wrong - I believe you're probably right. But you didn't actually provide any data for your claim. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/222/Shifting-of-the-Burden-of-Proof https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFalla...
    - jhayward 7y ago
      Perhaps you could contribute positively to the discussion rather than just taking badly aimed potshots. You objected, you do better.
      - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
        I consider criticizing an argument to be a contribution - I did not even say you are wrong. It seems you want me to provide a clearly detailed argument for why you are wrong, but I don't have that because I don't even believe you are wrong. I haven't looked at the data - I just looked at your argument. Anyway, agree to disagree I guess.
danso 7y ago
Using the numbers from the article you linked, and this WaPo article with more details [0]: 2,000 cars in the U.S. and Canada were believed to have had fires related to the ignition switches, which were installed in 23 million Ford vehicles. This is a failure rate of about 0.0087% overall, although Ford ultimately argued that it would only need to recall a subset of the vehicles with the ignition switch: 8.7M vehicles. There are at least a dozen [1] Tesla fire incidents, and 720,000 Tesla vehicles sold through 2019 Q2 [2], which is a failure rate of about 0.0014%. So Tesla has a lower rate, but not by an order of magnitude, because Tesla has sold far fewer vehicles than Ford did over roughly the same number of years. So it seems justified for NHTSA to take a serious look into the issue. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1996/04/26/ford-issues-safety-recall-of-87-million-vehicles/9ec564b3-dccb-42e3-bf78-bcbf09d01147/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1996/04/26/f... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicle_fire_incidents#Tesla_Model_S_and_X https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicle_fire_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla,_Inc.#Sales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla,_Inc.#Sales

OnlineGladiator 7y ago

Comparing modern technology with decades old technology and claiming it's a fair comparison for safety standards is wildly disingenuous. How many modern vehicles spontaneously burst into flame? I could easily believe it's orders of magnitude larger than for Teslas, but when you make comparisons like you did it just discredits your entire argument.

jhayward 7y ago
Ok, I provided one example. It's on you to prove the point then. Please provide relevant facts proving your case. Prove my point is wrong. Oh, and the majority of present-day ignitions in automobiles are still the exact same mechanical interlock switching types used since the 60's. Higher-end vehicles have solid state switching, but it's not the majority of vehicles. Also: https://abcnews.go.com/US/bmw-recalls-million-vehicles-fire-risk/story?id=50922136 https://abcnews.go.com/US/bmw-recalls-million-vehicles-fire-...
- OnlineGladiator 7y ago
  You made a claim, not me. I just said your argument is flawed. I didn't say you're wrong - I believe you're probably right. But you didn't actually provide any data for your claim. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/222/Shifting-of-the-Burden-of-Proof https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFalla...
  - jhayward 7y ago
    Perhaps you could contribute positively to the discussion rather than just taking badly aimed potshots. You objected, you do better.
    - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
      I consider criticizing an argument to be a contribution - I did not even say you are wrong. It seems you want me to provide a clearly detailed argument for why you are wrong, but I don't have that because I don't even believe you are wrong. I haven't looked at the data - I just looked at your argument. Anyway, agree to disagree I guess.

danso 7y ago

Using the numbers from the article you linked, and this WaPo article with more details [0]: 2,000 cars in the U.S. and Canada were believed to have had fires related to the ignition switches, which were installed in 23 million Ford vehicles. This is a failure rate of about 0.0087% overall, although Ford ultimately argued that it would only need to recall a subset of the vehicles with the ignition switch: 8.7M vehicles. There are at least a dozen [1] Tesla fire incidents, and 720,000 Tesla vehicles sold through 2019 Q2 [2], which is a failure rate of about 0.0014%. So Tesla has a lower rate, but not by an order of magnitude, because Tesla has sold far fewer vehicles than Ford did over roughly the same number of years. So it seems justified for NHTSA to take a serious look into the issue. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1996/04/26/ford-issues-safety-recall-of-87-million-vehicles/9ec564b3-dccb-42e3-bf78-bcbf09d01147/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1996/04/26/f... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicle_fire_incidents#Tesla_Model_S_and_X https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicle_fire_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla,_Inc.#Sales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla,_Inc.#Sales