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Isn't saying AI is the future of Go like saying cars are the future of sprinting? I mean who cares if machines are faster/better/smarter than us at any particu

Isn't saying AI is the future of Go like saying cars are the future of sprinting? I mean who cares if machines are faster/better/smarter than us at any particular task? That is true in millions of ways where humans still enjoy competing against each other. Maybe what's needed is just a perspective change where we stop thinking of Go as being against any other agent and make it, like every other human competition, against other humans.

gsempe 7y ago
That’s exactly why the master shouldn’t have quit.
avs733 7y ago
Another way to look at your metaphor is that research on exercise physiology has shown the enormous importance of rest and proper nutrition during training. Prior to cars, getting from place to place and access to optimal nutrition were both mediated by transport over long distances. AI is the future of Go because it enables those new perspectives and new processes by which human players can learn. AI is smart-dumb, looking for patterns beyond the human capacity, but limited by the data on existing human players that has been provided to them. Strava hasn't made running races pointless. I can compare my runs to others but that is a very different metric then beating them in a head to head race.
- elcritch 7y ago
  Technically AlphaGo and especially AlphaGo Zero create their own training data. So they’re not limited to data from human players.
- gnode 7y ago
  > limited by the data on existing human players that has been provided to them. Except it isn't. In various games, new strategies have been found by playing AI vs AI. It's also possible to create AI players by self-play with no knowledge of human matches.
- babesh 7y ago
  Do these AIs actually have much of a strategy? Is the strategy mostly correct evaluations of positions and optimized search?
  - EsssM7QVMehFPAs 7y ago
    The search space of Go is way too large for dumb traverse of the tree, even with high end optimizations. What makes recent breakthroughs in AI agents playing adversarial games possible is the fact that deep neural networks are able to develop patterns that yield short- and long-term strategic planning. And the ability to self train without human intervention to reach unprecedented training levels.
- alasdair_ 7y ago
  > AI is smart-dumb, looking for patterns beyond the human capacity, but limited by the data on existing human players that has been provided to them. I think you misunderstand how AI in games like go now works. Most of the advancements recently have been from the AI playing itself, oftentimes without any database of human moves at all.
sukilot 7y ago
Sprinting is a weird sport. I think it exists because running is a natural human skill that many people care about beyond running contests, because they can't thrive with complete dependence on machines for locomotion. In most people's lives, there are times where the ability to run actually matters. But the ability to play Go never matters outside of playing Go, and we know who is the best at playing Go.
- stormbrew 7y ago
  Ah yes, the ability to use your brain competitively is completely useless in the day to day lives of humans. It's much more important to everyone's day to day life that they can occasionally sprint 30 feet to the bus because they snoozed their alarm one too many times, and that is of course a completely comparable skill to a 100m dash.
Rapzid 7y ago
It's bizarrely "hip" or "woke" or whatever right now to anthropomorphize "AI". "AI" is light years away from being anything more than a tool. AI doesn't "play Go" in my view as much as people play go, via AI. Is it really shocking we've built a tool that we can use to play Go better than somebody without said tool? If Lee Sedol says "Okay AlphaGo, let's play!" and sits down at a board what happens? Nothing happens! AlphaGo has no agency. AlphaGo is an extension of human agency. AlphaGo isn't better than humans at Go. Humans with AlphaGo are better at Go than humans without AlphaGo.
DrJaws 7y ago
I don't think this is about GO, but about humans becoming useless faster every day against machines in virtually everything and how that is going to affect society and us as humans.

gsempe 7y ago

That’s exactly why the master shouldn’t have quit.

avs733 7y ago

Another way to look at your metaphor is that research on exercise physiology has shown the enormous importance of rest and proper nutrition during training. Prior to cars, getting from place to place and access to optimal nutrition were both mediated by transport over long distances. AI is the future of Go because it enables those new perspectives and new processes by which human players can learn. AI is smart-dumb, looking for patterns beyond the human capacity, but limited by the data on existing human players that has been provided to them. Strava hasn't made running races pointless. I can compare my runs to others but that is a very different metric then beating them in a head to head race.

elcritch 7y ago
Technically AlphaGo and especially AlphaGo Zero create their own training data. So they’re not limited to data from human players.
gnode 7y ago
> limited by the data on existing human players that has been provided to them. Except it isn't. In various games, new strategies have been found by playing AI vs AI. It's also possible to create AI players by self-play with no knowledge of human matches.
babesh 7y ago
Do these AIs actually have much of a strategy? Is the strategy mostly correct evaluations of positions and optimized search?
- EsssM7QVMehFPAs 7y ago
  The search space of Go is way too large for dumb traverse of the tree, even with high end optimizations. What makes recent breakthroughs in AI agents playing adversarial games possible is the fact that deep neural networks are able to develop patterns that yield short- and long-term strategic planning. And the ability to self train without human intervention to reach unprecedented training levels.
alasdair_ 7y ago
> AI is smart-dumb, looking for patterns beyond the human capacity, but limited by the data on existing human players that has been provided to them. I think you misunderstand how AI in games like go now works. Most of the advancements recently have been from the AI playing itself, oftentimes without any database of human moves at all.

sukilot 7y ago

Sprinting is a weird sport. I think it exists because running is a natural human skill that many people care about beyond running contests, because they can't thrive with complete dependence on machines for locomotion. In most people's lives, there are times where the ability to run actually matters. But the ability to play Go never matters outside of playing Go, and we know who is the best at playing Go.

stormbrew 7y ago
Ah yes, the ability to use your brain competitively is completely useless in the day to day lives of humans. It's much more important to everyone's day to day life that they can occasionally sprint 30 feet to the bus because they snoozed their alarm one too many times, and that is of course a completely comparable skill to a 100m dash.

Rapzid 7y ago

It's bizarrely "hip" or "woke" or whatever right now to anthropomorphize "AI". "AI" is light years away from being anything more than a tool. AI doesn't "play Go" in my view as much as people play go, via AI. Is it really shocking we've built a tool that we can use to play Go better than somebody without said tool? If Lee Sedol says "Okay AlphaGo, let's play!" and sits down at a board what happens? Nothing happens! AlphaGo has no agency. AlphaGo is an extension of human agency. AlphaGo isn't better than humans at Go. Humans with AlphaGo are better at Go than humans without AlphaGo.

DrJaws 7y ago

I don't think this is about GO, but about humans becoming useless faster every day against machines in virtually everything and how that is going to affect society and us as humans.