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> However, it uses the Russian spelling of Crimean place names on its maps in Russia, rather than the Ukrainian spelling. The vast majority of people in Crimea

> However, it uses the Russian spelling of Crimean place names on its maps in Russia, rather than the Ukrainian spelling. The vast majority of people in Crimea are Russian speakers (as well as being ethnically Russian). It's been that way since the Russian Empire conquered the peninsula from the Ottomans in 1783. In fact, there's nearly as many Tartar (descendents of Ottomans) speakers in Crimea than Ukrainian. Last time I was there (early this year), I saw a number of new mosques under construction. I'm not justifying the recent annexation, just noting the linguist realities on the ground. Also, politics aside, if you ever have the chance to visit, do it. The peninsula is very beautiful and there's lots of interesting geographical features and historical sights to see. Also, the infrastructure has improved significantly since the Russian takeover (unfortunately Ukraine being poor, neglected the peninsula after the collapse of the USSR) so getting around is easier now. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#demographics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#demographics

polski-g 7y ago
The majority of the people in Crimea are and were Russian at the time of vote for annexation. It makes sense that genetic Russians would want to reunite with their people.
- jevgeni 7y ago
  Oh wow... "Jedem das Seine", right? /s
- keymone 7y ago
  First, you’re conflating language with national identity here, second you’re completely ignoring Crimean tatars that we’re repressed and mass deported from Crimea by Stalin, third you’re not making any sense anyway, because just because major chunk of local population wants to secede - can’t be ground for annexation and starting war, that’s just idiotic.
  - polski-g 7y ago
    The Ukrainian/Russian mainland war is a separate issue from Russians living in Crimea wanting to be reunited with their countrymen.
    - brutt 7y ago
      Ukrainians, which are living in RF, are wanting to be reunited with Ukraine, so let's start the war!
      - drran 7y ago
        Hmm. How you will slice Russia? Even USA cannot do that, because of (real) fear of MAD. It's better to not spread something like that. Empire will fall on it own, just wait.
    - trymas 7y ago
      Where did you het this idea? If they want to be reunited, then how about they use one way ticket to Moscow and enjoy the motherland..
      - cpursley 7y ago
        I agree with this 100%. Russia is huge and big enough. Just move instead of bringing death and destruction to your village.
        trymas 7y ago
        And that's what former Soviet citizens living in Ukraine's Crimea should've done... But I guess strong helping hand from father putin was just too convenient for them..
      - polski-g 7y ago
        From their 80% vote to join Russia when given the option
jevgeni 7y ago
By that logic, all areas of Russia where the non-Russian ethnicity is dominant (of which there are a lot) should all be written out in their respective languages. Also, the argument "well it was like that since <some time t>" does not really have traction. Why choose an arbitrary time point? Usually, these arguments fall apart when you suggest to look at <t - dt>.
- cpursley 7y ago
  In many Russian territories, they are in fact. You'll see multi lingual signs and that kind of stuff. I was in Komi Republic this time last year and many signs had both Komi (a Fino language) and Russian, despite a very insignificant number of living speakers.
  - jevgeni 7y ago
    That's not the argument tho, is it? I think Russian speakers in Ukraine were pretty comfortable themselves.
    - pashky 7y ago
      No, not in Crimea. True hate for all things Ukrainian was real there, especially in older folks. Many older generations never learned the language anyway and feeling of being heavily abused by politicians in Kyiv didn’t help the cause either. This was very different from for example Baltic states.
      - jevgeni 7y ago
        Wait wait wait, I grew up in the Baltics as a Russian speaker. What you go through as such there (especially in Latvia and Estonia) is actual discrimination. As in: some people started to change their names to hide their Russian origins. What you have in Ukraine in comparison is a gentle reminder to please at some point learn the language of your country.
      - keymone 7y ago
        Crimea has autonomy since forever and local parliament and government. Most schools in Crimea are russian speaking. This talk of abuse is just propaganda.
mzs 7y ago
So? It's not Z Lałręc ul nor Hospital Conmemorativo de Jackson in US just because the majority of people in a place speak a different language or came from somewhere else.
- knolax 7y ago
  Except that's exactly how it happens in the US, it's "Los Angeles" /lɔːs ˈændʒələs/ and not "Los Ángeles" /los ãŋxeles/ because the majority of people there have been English speakers ever since the US conquest of the Southwest.
zzzcpan 7y ago
> The vast majority of people in Crimea are Russian speakers (as well as being ethnically Russian), not Ukrainian. It's been that way since the Russian Empire conquered the peninsula from the Ottomans in 1783. In fact, there's nearly as many Tartar (descendents of Ottomans) speakers in Crimea than Ukrainian. This is misleading and factually incorrect. Everyone who speaks Russian also speaks Ukrainian in Ukraine, except for people who literally moved there recently from Russia and other countries.
- cpursley 7y ago
  Yes, this is factually correct - just Google around for Crimea language maps. While this is true of mainland Ukraine (multilingual), Crimea has a different history. It was Russian speakers from the Russian Empire who displaced Tatars (a Turkish language). There was never a significant Ukrainian speaking population in Crimea. Most Crimeans don't speak any Ukrainian. Just because you don't agree with Russian politics doesn't change the facts about which languages are spoken: * https://www.quora.com/Do-they-speak-Russian-or-Ukrainian-in-Crimea https://www.quora.com/Do-they-speak-Russian-or-Ukrainian-in-... * https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea * https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/they-speak-russian-in-crimea-but-that-doesn-t-make-it-part-of-russia/ https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/they-spea...
  - zzzcpan 7y ago
    > Most Crimeans don't speak any Ukrainian. No, most Crimeans do speak both Russian and Ukrainian, just like everyone else in Ukraine, since Ukrainian is the only official language and it's pretty much impossible to not be exposed to both languages, especially in education and media. After the fall of Soviet Union all the ethnic Russians in Ukraine (incl. Crimea) had no way of avoiding it and do speak Ukrainian.
    - cpursley 7y ago
      Are you Ukrainian? Have you been to Crimea? A language becoming official (which was only very recent) does not magically make everyone fluent. Sure, Crimeans probably all know some A2 level Ukrainian from media. But they are not fluent and are likely speaking Russian or Tartar at home.
ajross 7y ago
> I'm not justifying the recent annexation It really sounds like you are, though. I mean the principle most of us care about here isn't about matching iOS app text to "the linguistic realities on the ground", it's about not condoning the literal invasion of neighboring countries (by a nuclear power, no less). > Also, the infrastructure has improved significantly since the Russian takeover Also sounds very much like a justification for an invasion.
- mzs 7y ago
  Want to know the worst part? Chase* edited his comment to add those parts you quoted. It's not surprising I guess he has "CCCP" on his IG avatar: https://imgur.com/Oh1OlfD https://imgur.com/Oh1OlfD * https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=cpursley https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=cpursley >about: chasepursley.com
  - cpursley 7y ago
    Oh, you got me - I'm a communist!!! Or a Putin sympathizer (I always mix up which one is the more pointed insult). Anyways, that was taken outside of an interesting museum in Sevastopol. The entire bay there is pretty cool. You can take a boat tour around it. There's a bunch of old USSR ships in various levels of decay as well as some of the newer stuff (the main reason for the annexation was for control of this warm water port btw): Museum of the Black Sea Fleet Lenina St, 11, Sevastopol https://maps.app.goo.gl/NmSHU6Tpnc4ZiUbw9 https://maps.app.goo.gl/NmSHU6Tpnc4ZiUbw9 My favorite is the "secret" underground submarine base in Balaklava. Fascinating place that until recently was off limits to Westerners: Voyenno-Istoricheskiy Muzey Fortifikatsionnykh Sooruzheniy 1 99000, Marmurova St, Sevastopol https://maps.app.goo.gl/z7o7moKc8t4Fbch66 https://maps.app.goo.gl/z7o7moKc8t4Fbch66
imjasonmiller 7y ago
> The vast majority of people in Crimea are Russian speakers (as well as being ethnically Russian). It's been that way since the Russian Empire conquered the peninsula from the Ottomans in 1783. Where did you find population data before 1879? I have looked at the linked data before and it was called the first Russian census [1]. If I am not mistaken, the data at that time shows Tatars still being the biggest group at 35.6%. In the context of this topic I think it is fair to also include the deportation of hundreds of thousands of Crimean Tatars by Lavrentiy Beria, which is one of the reasons for their numbers dwindling to less than one percent in '45 [2]. The link [2] also shows that Crimean Tatars made up 98% of Crimea in 1783. From the linked authors, Tanner [3, p. 21–22], wrote: > Ever since the first Russian conquest of the Crimean Khanate, the Tatars had faced striking and gradual colonization of Crimea by Slavs, mainly Russians and Ukrainians. At the time of the Russian annexation of the Crimean Khanate in 1783, Crimea was an almost uniformly Tatar country, Crimeans constituting 98% of the population (about 500,000) people. With the other author, Drohobycky [4, p. 73], writing: > Until the end of the eighteenth century, the Crimean Tatars were the largest ethnic group based on size. The process of formation of the Crimean Tatar people had been completed in the sixteenth century. After Crimeas annexation by Russia in 1873, Crimea was intensively colonized by the Russians and less intensively by the Ukrainians, Germans, Bulgarians, Jews, Armenians, Greeks, and other ethnic groups. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Demographics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Demographics 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tat... 3. Tanner, A. (2004). The Forgotten minorities of Eastern Europe: the history and today of selected ethnic groups in five countries. Helsinki: East-West Books. 4. Drohobycky, M. (1995). Crimea: Dynamics, Challenges and Prospects. Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers.
- cpursley 7y ago
  We're not in disagreement. The displacement of Crimean Tartars was not immediate. Then later, the deportation of them under Stalin and Beria to the Soviet *stans (which was terrible and horrifying). After the fall of the USSR, a large number of the Tartars returned to Crimea (I once had an interesting conversation with one on a flight who now lives in the US).
brutt 7y ago
You forgot to mention that Crimea Tatars, Greeks, and Ukrainians were deported and murdered in Crimea. It's easy to make Crimea speak any language this way. However, in times before mass-education was started and official variant of Russian language was developed, the folk variant of language spoken there was called "molva", which now known as Ukrainian language ("mova").
- cpursley 7y ago
  Well, yes - this deportation happened and is one of the many dark moments in USSR history. Glad you brought this up - difficult to write the entire history of the region on hn. The history of the Pontic Greeks and then later, Italian city states, in the Black Sea is really fascinating. This is a pretty decent English language history of the area: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_(book) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_(book) Also, I didn't know about "mova", neat - this language or dialect was spoken in Crimea?
  - brutt 7y ago
    Molva (~rumors, «народная молва») was common name of folk language spoken at territory of (Kievan) Russia. Later it was replaced by official developed language, called yazyk ( tongue, «язык»), which was based on ancient dialect of South Slavic language, as spoken in Russian churches. However, leaders of folk movement, later known as Ukrainians, developed and enhanced folk language, which then was renamed into Ukrainian language, and used as one of symbols of independence from Moscow, so it was systematically suppressed by government of Russian Empire, Soviet Union, and Russian Federation.
    - cpursley 7y ago
      Very interesting. Thank you / Дякую / Спасибо.
- int_19h 7y ago
  These all need to be considered separately. Crimean Tatars constituted the majority of the population of Crimea before the Russian conquest. They became the minority partly through genocide, and partly because the peninsula was settled by Russian colonists. Ukrainians, on the other hand, were never indigenous in Crimea. It was not a part of Kievan Rus, so any Ukrainians who lived there, immigrated there after the Russian occupation of it. And there are so few mostly because most immigration to it was orchestrated, and the Imperial government preferred to settle it with Russian rather than Ukrainian colonists. So in one case, you can talk about genocide of the indigenous population. In the other case, it's preferential treatment of one ethnicity over another for colonization purposes.
trymas 7y ago
> Also, the infrastructure has improved significantly since the Russian takeover (unfortunately Ukraine being poor, neglected the peninsula after the collapse of the USSR) so getting around is easier now. Ukraine, after Soviet Union crumbled was always under the foot of Russian Federation. It is the poorest performer of any country which became independent after Soviet occupation. It never managed to properly "westernize", because Russian influence and bullying was strong. Russian cronies in the government and Crimea was literally a Russian naval base. Due to strong influence from the East, eastern Ukraine population was mentally stuck in the "good old Soviet times". After Maidan in 2014 and Russian friendly Ukrainian president was toppled for dropping trade agreements from EU, Putin clearly saw that he may lose control of the naval bases to the Black Sea, so decided to take Crimea by power. Crimea to Russia right now is just propaganda to push agenda for the rest of Ukraine and to the Russians as well (oh look how great you'll live in the Mother Russia). Most of the Russia except for Moscow and St. Petersburg is in pretty poor and rough state. P.S. sorry for my English. Non native speaker. Also opinion is mine and speaking from my memory, if I am not correct please correct me. I am talking as a person whose country was at the same position as Ukraine 30 years ago, but now average Joe is economically 5-10 times better than average Ukrainian. Ukraine is poor because it's 20-30 years late to free itself from Soviet/Russian shambles. Edit: also I want to add that for Russia this stunt did cost huge amounts from cash reserves and rubble have lost half of it's value which has not recovered to this day, which made locals "very happy".
- cpursley 7y ago
  Interesting and fair enough. Crimeans that I've spoken to are mostly happy with the annexation, but they have complained about the loss of purchasing power (Ruble is stronger than Hryvnia). So infrastructure is better, but their incomes have not adjusted to be in line with rest of Russia and things are more expensive than before.
  - trymas 7y ago
    I am sorry in advance, but to me your comments seem very naive. I guess people who have never survived any kind of foreign oppression, propaganda, active fifth column [0] operating for years in sovereign country, KGB/FSB tactics and mentality, etc. will never fully understand this. > Crimeans that I've spoken to are mostly happy with the annexation 1. They won't tell you otherwise. Ask N. Korean citizen if it likes to live there. Of course it does - either because it does not want to end up in a work camp lasting for 3 generations or at best - that the person does not know any better. 2. I guess the most important thing is - Russification of Ukraine lasting more than a century. Crimea suffered the worst [1]. I could bet that former Soviet citizens living in Baltic states [2] would have asked for "help" from Kremlin and would've successfully and "happily" voted for regions with biggest Russian population to secede from Baltic country into Russia. That's what happened in Crimea and thank god that Baltics are in NATO. 3. Sevastopol is a major naval base for Russia [3][4] that they leased from Ukraine (oh how generous of them) and was one of the initial attack vectors to annex peninsula in 2014. I could rant for hours on this, but in short - Russian Empire and Soviet union have destroyed major percentage of natives from the occupied territories and have relocated great numbers of native Russians into the occupied territories. In the Baltics every person knows at least some relative or a friend that during Soviet times were exiled to Siberia, mysteriously disappeared or KGB kicked out the door at 3am ant told to go "for a drive". If the person does not know anyone with such faith - I could give 99.9% that the person (or it's ancestors) were/are Russian/Soviet citizens. To this day Russia uses those former Russian/Soviet citizen as a fifth column, these people are very susceptible to Russian propaganda and they have very idilic image of Soviet way of life (oh those great young days). Soviet/Russian propaganda is strong, intelligent and witty. Goebbels would be so jealous of how good they are. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_column https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_column [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification_of_Ukraine#/media/File:Russians_Ukraine_2001.PNG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification_of_Ukraine#/medi... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Latvia#/media/File:Russians_in_Baltic_States_(2011).svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Latvia#/media/File... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevastopol_Naval_Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevastopol_Naval_Base

polski-g 7y ago

The majority of the people in Crimea are and were Russian at the time of vote for annexation. It makes sense that genetic Russians would want to reunite with their people.

jevgeni 7y ago
Oh wow... "Jedem das Seine", right? /s
keymone 7y ago
First, you’re conflating language with national identity here, second you’re completely ignoring Crimean tatars that we’re repressed and mass deported from Crimea by Stalin, third you’re not making any sense anyway, because just because major chunk of local population wants to secede - can’t be ground for annexation and starting war, that’s just idiotic.
- polski-g 7y ago
  The Ukrainian/Russian mainland war is a separate issue from Russians living in Crimea wanting to be reunited with their countrymen.
  - brutt 7y ago
    Ukrainians, which are living in RF, are wanting to be reunited with Ukraine, so let's start the war!
    - drran 7y ago
      Hmm. How you will slice Russia? Even USA cannot do that, because of (real) fear of MAD. It's better to not spread something like that. Empire will fall on it own, just wait.
  - trymas 7y ago
    Where did you het this idea? If they want to be reunited, then how about they use one way ticket to Moscow and enjoy the motherland..
    - cpursley 7y ago
      I agree with this 100%. Russia is huge and big enough. Just move instead of bringing death and destruction to your village.
      - trymas 7y ago
        And that's what former Soviet citizens living in Ukraine's Crimea should've done... But I guess strong helping hand from father putin was just too convenient for them..
    - polski-g 7y ago
      From their 80% vote to join Russia when given the option

jevgeni 7y ago

By that logic, all areas of Russia where the non-Russian ethnicity is dominant (of which there are a lot) should all be written out in their respective languages. Also, the argument "well it was like that since <some time t>" does not really have traction. Why choose an arbitrary time point? Usually, these arguments fall apart when you suggest to look at <t - dt>.

cpursley 7y ago
In many Russian territories, they are in fact. You'll see multi lingual signs and that kind of stuff. I was in Komi Republic this time last year and many signs had both Komi (a Fino language) and Russian, despite a very insignificant number of living speakers.
- jevgeni 7y ago
  That's not the argument tho, is it? I think Russian speakers in Ukraine were pretty comfortable themselves.
  - pashky 7y ago
    No, not in Crimea. True hate for all things Ukrainian was real there, especially in older folks. Many older generations never learned the language anyway and feeling of being heavily abused by politicians in Kyiv didn’t help the cause either. This was very different from for example Baltic states.
    - jevgeni 7y ago
      Wait wait wait, I grew up in the Baltics as a Russian speaker. What you go through as such there (especially in Latvia and Estonia) is actual discrimination. As in: some people started to change their names to hide their Russian origins. What you have in Ukraine in comparison is a gentle reminder to please at some point learn the language of your country.
    - keymone 7y ago
      Crimea has autonomy since forever and local parliament and government. Most schools in Crimea are russian speaking. This talk of abuse is just propaganda.

mzs 7y ago

So? It's not Z Lałręc ul nor Hospital Conmemorativo de Jackson in US just because the majority of people in a place speak a different language or came from somewhere else.

knolax 7y ago
Except that's exactly how it happens in the US, it's "Los Angeles" /lɔːs ˈændʒələs/ and not "Los Ángeles" /los ãŋxeles/ because the majority of people there have been English speakers ever since the US conquest of the Southwest.

zzzcpan 7y ago

> The vast majority of people in Crimea are Russian speakers (as well as being ethnically Russian), not Ukrainian. It's been that way since the Russian Empire conquered the peninsula from the Ottomans in 1783. In fact, there's nearly as many Tartar (descendents of Ottomans) speakers in Crimea than Ukrainian. This is misleading and factually incorrect. Everyone who speaks Russian also speaks Ukrainian in Ukraine, except for people who literally moved there recently from Russia and other countries.

cpursley 7y ago
Yes, this is factually correct - just Google around for Crimea language maps. While this is true of mainland Ukraine (multilingual), Crimea has a different history. It was Russian speakers from the Russian Empire who displaced Tatars (a Turkish language). There was never a significant Ukrainian speaking population in Crimea. Most Crimeans don't speak any Ukrainian. Just because you don't agree with Russian politics doesn't change the facts about which languages are spoken: * https://www.quora.com/Do-they-speak-Russian-or-Ukrainian-in-Crimea https://www.quora.com/Do-they-speak-Russian-or-Ukrainian-in-... * https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea * https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/they-speak-russian-in-crimea-but-that-doesn-t-make-it-part-of-russia/ https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/they-spea...
- zzzcpan 7y ago
  > Most Crimeans don't speak any Ukrainian. No, most Crimeans do speak both Russian and Ukrainian, just like everyone else in Ukraine, since Ukrainian is the only official language and it's pretty much impossible to not be exposed to both languages, especially in education and media. After the fall of Soviet Union all the ethnic Russians in Ukraine (incl. Crimea) had no way of avoiding it and do speak Ukrainian.
  - cpursley 7y ago
    Are you Ukrainian? Have you been to Crimea? A language becoming official (which was only very recent) does not magically make everyone fluent. Sure, Crimeans probably all know some A2 level Ukrainian from media. But they are not fluent and are likely speaking Russian or Tartar at home.

ajross 7y ago

> I'm not justifying the recent annexation It really sounds like you are, though. I mean the principle most of us care about here isn't about matching iOS app text to "the linguistic realities on the ground", it's about not condoning the literal invasion of neighboring countries (by a nuclear power, no less). > Also, the infrastructure has improved significantly since the Russian takeover Also sounds very much like a justification for an invasion.

mzs 7y ago
Want to know the worst part? Chase* edited his comment to add those parts you quoted. It's not surprising I guess he has "CCCP" on his IG avatar: https://imgur.com/Oh1OlfD https://imgur.com/Oh1OlfD * https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=cpursley https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=cpursley >about: chasepursley.com
- cpursley 7y ago
  Oh, you got me - I'm a communist!!! Or a Putin sympathizer (I always mix up which one is the more pointed insult). Anyways, that was taken outside of an interesting museum in Sevastopol. The entire bay there is pretty cool. You can take a boat tour around it. There's a bunch of old USSR ships in various levels of decay as well as some of the newer stuff (the main reason for the annexation was for control of this warm water port btw): Museum of the Black Sea Fleet Lenina St, 11, Sevastopol https://maps.app.goo.gl/NmSHU6Tpnc4ZiUbw9 https://maps.app.goo.gl/NmSHU6Tpnc4ZiUbw9 My favorite is the "secret" underground submarine base in Balaklava. Fascinating place that until recently was off limits to Westerners: Voyenno-Istoricheskiy Muzey Fortifikatsionnykh Sooruzheniy 1 99000, Marmurova St, Sevastopol https://maps.app.goo.gl/z7o7moKc8t4Fbch66 https://maps.app.goo.gl/z7o7moKc8t4Fbch66

imjasonmiller 7y ago

> The vast majority of people in Crimea are Russian speakers (as well as being ethnically Russian). It's been that way since the Russian Empire conquered the peninsula from the Ottomans in 1783. Where did you find population data before 1879? I have looked at the linked data before and it was called the first Russian census [1]. If I am not mistaken, the data at that time shows Tatars still being the biggest group at 35.6%. In the context of this topic I think it is fair to also include the deportation of hundreds of thousands of Crimean Tatars by Lavrentiy Beria, which is one of the reasons for their numbers dwindling to less than one percent in '45 [2]. The link [2] also shows that Crimean Tatars made up 98% of Crimea in 1783. From the linked authors, Tanner [3, p. 21–22], wrote: > Ever since the first Russian conquest of the Crimean Khanate, the Tatars had faced striking and gradual colonization of Crimea by Slavs, mainly Russians and Ukrainians. At the time of the Russian annexation of the Crimean Khanate in 1783, Crimea was an almost uniformly Tatar country, Crimeans constituting 98% of the population (about 500,000) people. With the other author, Drohobycky [4, p. 73], writing: > Until the end of the eighteenth century, the Crimean Tatars were the largest ethnic group based on size. The process of formation of the Crimean Tatar people had been completed in the sixteenth century. After Crimeas annexation by Russia in 1873, Crimea was intensively colonized by the Russians and less intensively by the Ukrainians, Germans, Bulgarians, Jews, Armenians, Greeks, and other ethnic groups. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Demographics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Demographics 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tat... 3. Tanner, A. (2004). The Forgotten minorities of Eastern Europe: the history and today of selected ethnic groups in five countries. Helsinki: East-West Books. 4. Drohobycky, M. (1995). Crimea: Dynamics, Challenges and Prospects. Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers.

cpursley 7y ago
We're not in disagreement. The displacement of Crimean Tartars was not immediate. Then later, the deportation of them under Stalin and Beria to the Soviet *stans (which was terrible and horrifying). After the fall of the USSR, a large number of the Tartars returned to Crimea (I once had an interesting conversation with one on a flight who now lives in the US).

brutt 7y ago

You forgot to mention that Crimea Tatars, Greeks, and Ukrainians were deported and murdered in Crimea. It's easy to make Crimea speak any language this way. However, in times before mass-education was started and official variant of Russian language was developed, the folk variant of language spoken there was called "molva", which now known as Ukrainian language ("mova").

cpursley 7y ago
Well, yes - this deportation happened and is one of the many dark moments in USSR history. Glad you brought this up - difficult to write the entire history of the region on hn. The history of the Pontic Greeks and then later, Italian city states, in the Black Sea is really fascinating. This is a pretty decent English language history of the area: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_(book) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_(book) Also, I didn't know about "mova", neat - this language or dialect was spoken in Crimea?
- brutt 7y ago
  Molva (~rumors, «народная молва») was common name of folk language spoken at territory of (Kievan) Russia. Later it was replaced by official developed language, called yazyk ( tongue, «язык»), which was based on ancient dialect of South Slavic language, as spoken in Russian churches. However, leaders of folk movement, later known as Ukrainians, developed and enhanced folk language, which then was renamed into Ukrainian language, and used as one of symbols of independence from Moscow, so it was systematically suppressed by government of Russian Empire, Soviet Union, and Russian Federation.
  - cpursley 7y ago
    Very interesting. Thank you / Дякую / Спасибо.
int_19h 7y ago
These all need to be considered separately. Crimean Tatars constituted the majority of the population of Crimea before the Russian conquest. They became the minority partly through genocide, and partly because the peninsula was settled by Russian colonists. Ukrainians, on the other hand, were never indigenous in Crimea. It was not a part of Kievan Rus, so any Ukrainians who lived there, immigrated there after the Russian occupation of it. And there are so few mostly because most immigration to it was orchestrated, and the Imperial government preferred to settle it with Russian rather than Ukrainian colonists. So in one case, you can talk about genocide of the indigenous population. In the other case, it's preferential treatment of one ethnicity over another for colonization purposes.

trymas 7y ago

> Also, the infrastructure has improved significantly since the Russian takeover (unfortunately Ukraine being poor, neglected the peninsula after the collapse of the USSR) so getting around is easier now. Ukraine, after Soviet Union crumbled was always under the foot of Russian Federation. It is the poorest performer of any country which became independent after Soviet occupation. It never managed to properly "westernize", because Russian influence and bullying was strong. Russian cronies in the government and Crimea was literally a Russian naval base. Due to strong influence from the East, eastern Ukraine population was mentally stuck in the "good old Soviet times". After Maidan in 2014 and Russian friendly Ukrainian president was toppled for dropping trade agreements from EU, Putin clearly saw that he may lose control of the naval bases to the Black Sea, so decided to take Crimea by power. Crimea to Russia right now is just propaganda to push agenda for the rest of Ukraine and to the Russians as well (oh look how great you'll live in the Mother Russia). Most of the Russia except for Moscow and St. Petersburg is in pretty poor and rough state. P.S. sorry for my English. Non native speaker. Also opinion is mine and speaking from my memory, if I am not correct please correct me. I am talking as a person whose country was at the same position as Ukraine 30 years ago, but now average Joe is economically 5-10 times better than average Ukrainian. Ukraine is poor because it's 20-30 years late to free itself from Soviet/Russian shambles. Edit: also I want to add that for Russia this stunt did cost huge amounts from cash reserves and rubble have lost half of it's value which has not recovered to this day, which made locals "very happy".

cpursley 7y ago
Interesting and fair enough. Crimeans that I've spoken to are mostly happy with the annexation, but they have complained about the loss of purchasing power (Ruble is stronger than Hryvnia). So infrastructure is better, but their incomes have not adjusted to be in line with rest of Russia and things are more expensive than before.
- trymas 7y ago
  I am sorry in advance, but to me your comments seem very naive. I guess people who have never survived any kind of foreign oppression, propaganda, active fifth column [0] operating for years in sovereign country, KGB/FSB tactics and mentality, etc. will never fully understand this. > Crimeans that I've spoken to are mostly happy with the annexation 1. They won't tell you otherwise. Ask N. Korean citizen if it likes to live there. Of course it does - either because it does not want to end up in a work camp lasting for 3 generations or at best - that the person does not know any better. 2. I guess the most important thing is - Russification of Ukraine lasting more than a century. Crimea suffered the worst [1]. I could bet that former Soviet citizens living in Baltic states [2] would have asked for "help" from Kremlin and would've successfully and "happily" voted for regions with biggest Russian population to secede from Baltic country into Russia. That's what happened in Crimea and thank god that Baltics are in NATO. 3. Sevastopol is a major naval base for Russia [3][4] that they leased from Ukraine (oh how generous of them) and was one of the initial attack vectors to annex peninsula in 2014. I could rant for hours on this, but in short - Russian Empire and Soviet union have destroyed major percentage of natives from the occupied territories and have relocated great numbers of native Russians into the occupied territories. In the Baltics every person knows at least some relative or a friend that during Soviet times were exiled to Siberia, mysteriously disappeared or KGB kicked out the door at 3am ant told to go "for a drive". If the person does not know anyone with such faith - I could give 99.9% that the person (or it's ancestors) were/are Russian/Soviet citizens. To this day Russia uses those former Russian/Soviet citizen as a fifth column, these people are very susceptible to Russian propaganda and they have very idilic image of Soviet way of life (oh those great young days). Soviet/Russian propaganda is strong, intelligent and witty. Goebbels would be so jealous of how good they are. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_column https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_column [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification_of_Ukraine#/media/File:Russians_Ukraine_2001.PNG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification_of_Ukraine#/medi... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Latvia#/media/File:Russians_in_Baltic_States_(2011).svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Latvia#/media/File... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevastopol_Naval_Base https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevastopol_Naval_Base