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Two fires were mentioned in OP, 2012-2019. Even if it's 200 that get surfaced, look at the alternative: about 180,000 highway vehicle fires per year in the US.
by imglorp 7y ago
Two fires were mentioned in OP, 2012-2019. Even if it's 200 that get surfaced, look at the alternative: about 180,000 highway vehicle fires per year in the US. Having a compartment full of leaky flammable fluids and hot exhaust components might tend to do that on occasion.
The bigger story might be the risk/reward tradeoff of those few battery fires vs everyone's charge capacity.
source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/377006/nmber-of-us-highway-vehicle-fires/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/377006/nmber-of-us-highw...
- ryanmercer 7y ago>Having a compartment full of leaky flammable fluids and hot exhaust components might tend to do that on occasion. Indeed, but you also get animal related fires (I have no clue as to what percentage) as birds, mice, chipmunks etc will build nests in vehicles. I imagine the animal related fires are pretty low and in the case of an EV would be next to non-existent for nest-related fires, I wonder though if EVs though are more at risk of electrical fire from pets chewing on wires. Trying to find any sort of statistics I stumbled upon a wildfire site that documents animal-started fires, the most recent one gave me a bit of a chuckle so I'm including it here: "Bear falls on Sheriff’s vehicle causing crash and fire" https://wildfiretoday.com/2019/08/09/bear-falls-on-sheriffs-vehicle-causing-crash-and-fire/ https://wildfiretoday.com/2019/08/09/bear-falls-on-sheriffs-... There's also the infrastructure damage caused by animals that is documented at https://cybersquirrel1.com/ https://cybersquirrel1.com/
- techstrategist 7y agoI don’t think it’s rational to compare to overall highway vehicle fires. Wouldn’t you want to compare against similar luxury vehicles of a similar age?
- im_with_stupid 7y agoI'm not a fan of all of Tesla's management practices, but this does seem to be a bit of a knee jerk reaction. One company has less than 1% of all fires for the industry, and with a component with known combustibility. Even if the electronics failed, leaving the driver stuck inside, you would think the owners would have the foresight to either have something capable of breaking windows or a method by which to break them.
- pgt 7y agoI don't think this is true: "you would think the owners would have the foresight to either have something capable of breaking windows".
- olyjohn 7y agoOf course it's not true. People don't even read the owners manual, or care about how anything in their car works. The amount of times I've shown somebody a feature they didn't know about in their own car is staggering.
- im_with_stupid 7y agoSo what you're stating is, the owners seem to carry most of the liability.
- dsfyu404ed 7y agoIn an ICE car fuel and ignition sources are generally separate there's little to be gained by being unsafe with fuel. In an EV your fuel and ignition sources are fundamentally inseparable and you can gain a lot (range/capacity, charge time/peak power) by being unsafe with it (running the battery to the ragged edge of what it can tolerate). The fact that in response they quickly rolled out an update that neutered a large amount of capacity is far more interesting than the fires themselves and probably what the NHTSA wants to look into.
- simion314 7y agoStill OP is right, compare Tesla with similar car of price and age , there is a cool book "How to lie with statistics" that shows you how easy it is to manipulate with bad statistics though I am sure many Tesla fans spread this wrong statistics due to ignorance and not intentionally.
- iamtheworstdev 7y agoI guess what I've learned in these comments is that people don't think the Tesla cars have manual, emergency use only, door releases.. Which they do.
- Jamwinner 7y agoI have put out even large car fires with a small extinguisher. A lithium fire takes hours and thousands of gallons of water to subside. There is also the possible issue of rapid exit when electrics are dead. While the chance is clearly lower, the risk is higher to you should it occur. Currently there is no good accepted methodology for firefighters and first responders beyond 'more water' or 'let it burn'. That is a real problem.
- imglorp 7y agoThis is a strawman argument really: what if this very rare thing happens (battery fire), and then another really rare thing on top of that (entrapment); therefore EV bad. Compared to flammable liquid fires at 180,000 per year, see above, which really are pretty common.
- karlp 7y agoIn case of accident, those two things would happen much frequently.
- hef19898 7y agoNo, that's classical FMEA (Failure Method Effect Analysis).
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago>Compared to flammable liquid fires at 180,000 per year, This is a straw-man argument too. You're comparing battery fires to all vehicle fires. Ask any mechanic and they will tell you vehicle electronics systems are the primary source of crispness with stalled electric motors and rodent damage being the primary sources. Regardless of how it gets its motive power a vehicle's power-train rarely catches fire compared to other things that catch fire (which is probably in part why the NHTSA is interested in this).
- lnsru 7y agoLithium fire also ends in a damaged battery, that needs special care. Better sources in German, but the problem is still described here: https://climatechangedispatch.com/wrecked-tesla-recycle-car/ https://climatechangedispatch.com/wrecked-tesla-recycle-car/
- kurthr 7y agoAnd don't forget carbon-monoxide poisonings and deaths... Then there's hybrids. I've personally witnessed 2 fires and know another friend whos car burned. Two Prius and one Nissan something. Those are the worst of both worlds, gas and electric!
- 6d6b73 7y agoOh FFS. It doesn't matter if it more or less likely, it matters that it does happen and therefore should be investigated to protect people now and in the future.. You want them to wait until number of ICE vs EV fires are equal to start investigating this? Why not do it now, and fix the problem? Not only it will potentially make EVs safer now, but it will potentially make EV companies more profitable in the long term ( less legal fees, recalls etc).
- close04 7y agoFull nuclear reactor meltdowns only happened once (Chernobyl). Far less often than a wind turbine generator failure. Which one shouldn’t be investigated?
- wiggles_md 7y agoThe lithium battery fires I’ve seen associated with BEVs accelerate faster (edit, was: are quite a bit more vigorous) than those I’ve seen associated with gasoline or diesel fueled vehicles. Shouldn’t the violence of the fire (not just the number of incidents) figure into the safety calculus?
- maratd 7y agoI would be far more concerned with the acceleration of the fire. If I have plenty of notice to get away from the vehicle and to keep others away, who cares how vigorous it is? Either way, the car will burn down. I don't think it matters how long that will take. Have there been any deaths in these EV fires?
- wiggles_md 7y agoThat’s what I was trying to say but didn’t successfully, the BEV fires I’ve seen in testing accelerate quite a bit faster. Plus, the battery tends to be located below the passenger compartment, whereas fuel fires tend to start in the engine compartment. It doesn’t feel like the two types of vehicle fires are directly comparable by frequency of incidents alone.
- DennisP 7y agoI'm a huge Tesla and Musk fan but I'll point out the feds are investigating spontaneous fires, not those associated with collisions. I saw a video of this happening with a parked Tesla. How many gasoline vehicles spontaneously burst into flame? Of course it's still rare, and I'll also mention that the Model 3 has a newer battery pack design and is not being investigated.
- imglorp 7y ago> How many gasoline vehicles spontaneously burst into flame Many, I think, mostly maintenance related. Frequent causes involve old gaskets or cracked fuel lines dripping onto the exhaust manifold, right on the side of the engine.
- DennisP 7y agoWell, true, good point. I think much fewer while parked and turned off. But I do remember now my old VW Bug manual, which detailed at least four ways the little beast could catch itself on fire.
- hef19898 7y agoTo be honest, the old VW Bug was technically a less than perfect car already back the day. A nice car, for sure and I love quirky old cars. But technically not perfect.