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C.G. Jung once wrote that it was totally clear that the amount of conscience of a group of people is inversely proportional to the size of the group. So, if cou

by cjfd 7y ago

C.G. Jung once wrote that it was totally clear that the amount of conscience of a group of people is inversely proportional to the size of the group. So, if countries are like people they mostly are like psychopaths.

Merrill 7y ago
The IQ of a group size N is approximately 100/logN for N>10. For the US Senate, N=100 and IQ = 50.
- dTal 7y ago
  So the IQ of America is 12. Do you have any rules for nested groups?
  - Merrill 7y ago
    No, but nested groups are the common organization of governments and corporations. The House of Representatives (IQ=38), for example, does little other than vote in session, while all of the actual work is done by committees. A nested model may be difficult because at N=10 or less, the IQ depends a lot on the selection of the individuals and their fit with the tasks to be undertaken. A nested governmental organization would be a good idea, and that is my impression of how the US worked early in its history. The voters would elect town officials who would elect county officials who would elect state legislators and at least in the case of the Senate, the state legislators would elect US Senators. Ideally the electors at each level would be able to assess the abilities and character of candidates and the cream would rise to the top. This is sort of how the two political parties still work, although the modern methods of getting elected and penchant for direct democracy enable candidates to run for offices without working their way up the party, e.g. Bloomberg.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    And yet America (assuming the colloquial 'America' that means 'The US') developed the atomic bomb and put a man on the moon. Could any single individual or small group of individuals have accomplished this? I doubt it. It takes a nation worth of resources and organization to pull these things off.
- StacyRoberts 7y ago
  Would a group of ten people with an iq each of 40 get smarter? That kind of math led to the greatest financial collapse in world history.
dTal 7y ago
If it's possible to mathematically characterize the relationship, and the relationship is non-linear, then there exists an optimal hierarchical grouping algorithm for maximizing empathy in nested groups (that balances the loss due to group numbers vs the "generation loss" from traversing hierarchical levels. I think the difference in sizes between the organizational groups of different countries goes a long way towards explaining the vast differences in political flavor. How many people are in the smallest political constituency you identify with? Dozens? Hundreds? Millions? This is the range of scales we're dealing with. What would it look like if we layered government so that at no level was any group larger than tribal size (~150)? In the US you'd only need 4 levels to cover the entire population, roughly corresponding to: neighborhood (150 people), town (~20,000 people), city/state (3-4 million people), country (327 million people). At that scale, each representative can be on friendly personal terms with a) everyone in the constituency they represent and b) every other representative at their level. So the access to government ought to be much better with this system. In the US, local and federal governments are divided - there's not a lot of continuity between the town government and your friendly local congressperson.
- crawfordcomeaux 7y ago
  My friends/partner and I are designing neighborhood models to go along with these ideas with the goal of experimenting with them on land we give back to native tribes. I'd love to talk to you more about this if you're interested. My contact info is in my profile, if so.
- Nasrudith 7y ago
  I suspect that it would lead to massive corruption if actually tried both in personal enrichment and NIMBYism for everything related to "being the one to bell the cat". Localism is fashionable but I can't help but suspect it will only make things worse judging by every dysfunctional small town and city council working on ineffectual grand proclimations and unconstitutional ordinances instead of actual responsibilities like potholes. Related the disturbing root of the problem has been historically been not just the leadership that is objectively terrible and accepts bad outcomes for the sake of hurting the other but that frankly the people and the values they hold dear. Storm Thurgood even admitted that he tried running on things which would actually help them and got no real interest but running on racism propelled him forward.
vlehto 7y ago
That would be the exactly same conclusion Machiavelli made. And I'm not trying to mock anybody here. Machiavelli was very smart dude.

by cjfd 7y ago

Merrill 7y ago

The IQ of a group size N is approximately 100/logN for N>10. For the US Senate, N=100 and IQ = 50.

dTal 7y ago
So the IQ of America is 12. Do you have any rules for nested groups?
- Merrill 7y ago
  No, but nested groups are the common organization of governments and corporations. The House of Representatives (IQ=38), for example, does little other than vote in session, while all of the actual work is done by committees. A nested model may be difficult because at N=10 or less, the IQ depends a lot on the selection of the individuals and their fit with the tasks to be undertaken. A nested governmental organization would be a good idea, and that is my impression of how the US worked early in its history. The voters would elect town officials who would elect county officials who would elect state legislators and at least in the case of the Senate, the state legislators would elect US Senators. Ideally the electors at each level would be able to assess the abilities and character of candidates and the cream would rise to the top. This is sort of how the two political parties still work, although the modern methods of getting elected and penchant for direct democracy enable candidates to run for offices without working their way up the party, e.g. Bloomberg.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  And yet America (assuming the colloquial 'America' that means 'The US') developed the atomic bomb and put a man on the moon. Could any single individual or small group of individuals have accomplished this? I doubt it. It takes a nation worth of resources and organization to pull these things off.
StacyRoberts 7y ago
Would a group of ten people with an iq each of 40 get smarter? That kind of math led to the greatest financial collapse in world history.

dTal 7y ago

If it's possible to mathematically characterize the relationship, and the relationship is non-linear, then there exists an optimal hierarchical grouping algorithm for maximizing empathy in nested groups (that balances the loss due to group numbers vs the "generation loss" from traversing hierarchical levels. I think the difference in sizes between the organizational groups of different countries goes a long way towards explaining the vast differences in political flavor. How many people are in the smallest political constituency you identify with? Dozens? Hundreds? Millions? This is the range of scales we're dealing with. What would it look like if we layered government so that at no level was any group larger than tribal size (~150)? In the US you'd only need 4 levels to cover the entire population, roughly corresponding to: neighborhood (150 people), town (~20,000 people), city/state (3-4 million people), country (327 million people). At that scale, each representative can be on friendly personal terms with a) everyone in the constituency they represent and b) every other representative at their level. So the access to government ought to be much better with this system. In the US, local and federal governments are divided - there's not a lot of continuity between the town government and your friendly local congressperson.

crawfordcomeaux 7y ago
My friends/partner and I are designing neighborhood models to go along with these ideas with the goal of experimenting with them on land we give back to native tribes. I'd love to talk to you more about this if you're interested. My contact info is in my profile, if so.
Nasrudith 7y ago
I suspect that it would lead to massive corruption if actually tried both in personal enrichment and NIMBYism for everything related to "being the one to bell the cat". Localism is fashionable but I can't help but suspect it will only make things worse judging by every dysfunctional small town and city council working on ineffectual grand proclimations and unconstitutional ordinances instead of actual responsibilities like potholes. Related the disturbing root of the problem has been historically been not just the leadership that is objectively terrible and accepts bad outcomes for the sake of hurting the other but that frankly the people and the values they hold dear. Storm Thurgood even admitted that he tried running on things which would actually help them and got no real interest but running on racism propelled him forward.

vlehto 7y ago

That would be the exactly same conclusion Machiavelli made. And I'm not trying to mock anybody here. Machiavelli was very smart dude.