4 ms·

I applaud Mozilla for taking this stance, but I think that blocking is fundamentally misguided approach. We need to start faking! Let’s fake DigiTrust IDs, conv

by tomp 7y ago

I applaud Mozilla for taking this stance, but I think that blocking is fundamentally misguided approach. We need to start faking! Let’s fake DigiTrust IDs, convince them that it’s not blocked, and leave them none the wiser! It’s the same approach Apple should have taken with (most) iOS permissions - the app shouldn’t be able to know that it cannot access e.g. user’s GPS location, it should just be faked (i.e. random).

cinquemb 7y ago
I second this, but I doubt anyone would get the go ahead to pursue this fully (spoof canvas readouts, user agents, fonts installed, plugins installed, screen size, etc) in firefox (non addon). Would also be great if noscript functionality was built into servo/dom/netwerk modules (would be way more performant than the addon).
- padenot 7y ago
  Firefox already supports something like this if you go to about:config and flip `privacy.resistFingerprinting` to true. It's not finished/perfect, but changes a lot of things.
  - cinquemb 7y ago
    Yeah, I do this, but I also have alot of things compiled into my fork that it doesn't do (yet).
    - gruez 7y ago
      Mind sharing those patches?
      - cinquemb 7y ago
        Mostly related to spoofing and caching user agents from those sampled from unencrypted pub wifi connections or popular list available online and randomizing them on every http request, some stuff related to (nuking) css url calls, randomization of read outs from canva2d, removing all the stuff on the new tab pages, randomization of list of available fonts/plugins/langs/etc available. Next thing I want to do is block arbitrary http requests by default and make the list of blocked url calls available to the dom (and a way to unblock them from the UI, or config file loaded in at runtime). I'll never pass recaptcha, but idc, i installed this on my wife's computer as well and i'm starting to explore a way i can make a ios build using the recent tethered jailbreak for ios devices (besides the most recent releases). One day, It would be fun to try a prank on a day I actually go into the office and exploin a vuln in the old cisco router firmware to try to get installed on other devices on the network and see if how many people actually notice the changes and/or start using the browser because the dont get ads anymore lol
ComodoHacker 7y ago
Could you elaborate, what's the purpose of providing fake GPS data to an app requesting it?
- Certhas 7y ago
  Prevent the app from not working due to lack of GPS permission. Basically apps shouldn't have the ability to refuse to work without your data.
  - ComodoHacker 7y ago
    apps shouldn't have the ability to refuse to work without your data I understand this case, but GP suggests to fake data for all apps. There are apps which are useless without location data. Or worse, you definitely wouldn't want to [accidentally] fake data for some apps, like a "SOS button" app.
    - bpfrh 7y ago
      That's why you would enable GPS for that app.
    - Jonnax 7y ago
      Sure. But the choice should be upto the user. If they want to send fake data then they should have the right to do that. It's my phone, so if I want to set my location to another country I should be able to. Of course this should be on a per app basis. An SOS button app? This is a niche usecase.
      - majewsky 7y ago
        > An SOS button app? This is a niche usecase. Not at all. In fact, more and more emergency services providers (i.e. the callcenters where 911 gets you) get your location automatically when you call them. I'm not entirely sure though if they only geolocate by cellphone tower, or if the handset also sends location data along with the emergency call. I vaguely remember hearing about this being "supported by all modern phones" or something, so it might be the second. In this case, you absolutely don't want faked location data because it could cost lives.
einr 7y ago
There is an interesting book discussing this approach: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/obfuscation https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/obfuscation
kgwxd 7y ago
I don't want to waste any CPU or network generating and sending anything. And it leaves a potential attack surface open to be abused.
- bassman9000 7y ago
  From an economic point of view, I understand the OP's point: it's a better deterrent to know know your data is bogus, than to be in the gray area where it may be right to use it or not. If data is shit, approach dies, because it's not economically viable. If it's just unethical, it will never stop.
- tomp 7y ago
  That's orthogonal. I don't want the app/website to know (and make decisions based on) whether or not it's being blocked or not... We can/should do IO/compute blocking in addition to faking input.

by tomp 7y ago

cinquemb 7y ago

I second this, but I doubt anyone would get the go ahead to pursue this fully (spoof canvas readouts, user agents, fonts installed, plugins installed, screen size, etc) in firefox (non addon). Would also be great if noscript functionality was built into servo/dom/netwerk modules (would be way more performant than the addon).

padenot 7y ago
Firefox already supports something like this if you go to about:config and flip `privacy.resistFingerprinting` to true. It's not finished/perfect, but changes a lot of things.
- cinquemb 7y ago
  Yeah, I do this, but I also have alot of things compiled into my fork that it doesn't do (yet).
  - gruez 7y ago
    Mind sharing those patches?
    - cinquemb 7y ago
      Mostly related to spoofing and caching user agents from those sampled from unencrypted pub wifi connections or popular list available online and randomizing them on every http request, some stuff related to (nuking) css url calls, randomization of read outs from canva2d, removing all the stuff on the new tab pages, randomization of list of available fonts/plugins/langs/etc available. Next thing I want to do is block arbitrary http requests by default and make the list of blocked url calls available to the dom (and a way to unblock them from the UI, or config file loaded in at runtime). I'll never pass recaptcha, but idc, i installed this on my wife's computer as well and i'm starting to explore a way i can make a ios build using the recent tethered jailbreak for ios devices (besides the most recent releases). One day, It would be fun to try a prank on a day I actually go into the office and exploin a vuln in the old cisco router firmware to try to get installed on other devices on the network and see if how many people actually notice the changes and/or start using the browser because the dont get ads anymore lol

ComodoHacker 7y ago

Could you elaborate, what's the purpose of providing fake GPS data to an app requesting it?

Certhas 7y ago
Prevent the app from not working due to lack of GPS permission. Basically apps shouldn't have the ability to refuse to work without your data.
- ComodoHacker 7y ago
  apps shouldn't have the ability to refuse to work without your data I understand this case, but GP suggests to fake data for all apps. There are apps which are useless without location data. Or worse, you definitely wouldn't want to [accidentally] fake data for some apps, like a "SOS button" app.
  - bpfrh 7y ago
    That's why you would enable GPS for that app.
  - Jonnax 7y ago
    Sure. But the choice should be upto the user. If they want to send fake data then they should have the right to do that. It's my phone, so if I want to set my location to another country I should be able to. Of course this should be on a per app basis. An SOS button app? This is a niche usecase.
    - majewsky 7y ago
      > An SOS button app? This is a niche usecase. Not at all. In fact, more and more emergency services providers (i.e. the callcenters where 911 gets you) get your location automatically when you call them. I'm not entirely sure though if they only geolocate by cellphone tower, or if the handset also sends location data along with the emergency call. I vaguely remember hearing about this being "supported by all modern phones" or something, so it might be the second. In this case, you absolutely don't want faked location data because it could cost lives.

einr 7y ago

There is an interesting book discussing this approach: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/obfuscation https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/obfuscation

kgwxd 7y ago

I don't want to waste any CPU or network generating and sending anything. And it leaves a potential attack surface open to be abused.

bassman9000 7y ago
From an economic point of view, I understand the OP's point: it's a better deterrent to know know your data is bogus, than to be in the gray area where it may be right to use it or not. If data is shit, approach dies, because it's not economically viable. If it's just unethical, it will never stop.
tomp 7y ago
That's orthogonal. I don't want the app/website to know (and make decisions based on) whether or not it's being blocked or not... We can/should do IO/compute blocking in addition to faking input.