5 ms·

I asked my SO recently how she view the Internet, what it is and how it works. She was honest and told me that, "If I click this button, this websites loads. If

I asked my SO recently how she view the Internet, what it is and how it works. She was honest and told me that, "If I click this button, this websites loads. If that works I'm fine! If it doesn't I will call you. Don't stop working with IT please, if you get it, we need you badly!" I believe that is a good reason to be accepting towards the current state of affairs. People just don't care. They have more important issues to deal with, deadlines to meet, problems to face. If you are frustrated and pissed off, great. That means you get it, and that's great! Now, meditate -- the journey to a perfect secure world will take some time, like beyond your current life span. It's not until you accept that reality that you will make real change globally. Because it takes time, a lot of time. Thanks for your effort so far.

kissgyorgy 7y ago
> the journey to a perfect secure world will take some time The author argues that it will never happen because we are WORSE today than we were before and I agree with that.
Iv 7y ago
Thing is, it took me a long time to accept that people not caring was ok. Now I realize that my dad is frustrated I never learned something as simple as changing the oil on my car. My mom does not understand how I can't name more than two flowers and can't bake a pie. My legal-minded friends are astounded I do not take a day to work on my legal status to pay less taxes. Hell, my wife does the paperwork I am not even sure of the tax rate we are paying. And yet, I see myself as pretty curious, jack of all trade. I understand many things about CS, mechanics, electronics, manufacturing, politics, economics, ecology... We live in a complex world and we rely on each other to make it work. Love each other, we really depend on each other, it is easier if we don't consider others stupid for choosing different areas of skills.
- isodude 7y ago
  Thanks, this summarizes my thoughts quite neatly. And most importantly, love yourself and don't let others disinterest get to your spirit of making good.
- Nition 7y ago
  Just wanted to say this is a really good comment, thanks for putting it out there.
  - Iv 7y ago
    Thanks, you made my day :-)
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  I can't accept that not caring is ok. The small "I don't care" extends into "I don't care about anything outside my immediate environment" and that has political and eventually global consequences. If their bank account is drained they will care, and get angry, and then maybe do something (but preferably the bank will recompense them in which case they feel better and go back to not caring). Some stuff you just can't do; as you say the world's too large, but many people don't want to put in the effort to learn stuff that would benefit them immediately, never mind over the longer term. I really do not understand people.
  - CathedralBorrow 7y ago
    > many people don't want to put in the effort to learn stuff that would benefit them immediately I take it you're not counting yourself in that group? Have you already learned everything that would benefit you immediately?
    - tempguy9999 7y ago
      It would be a better question if you asked it fairly: "Have you already learned everything". I did not suggest or imply 'everything' should be learnt.
      - CathedralBorrow 7y ago
        That's fair. Your comment would also be better if you quoted me fairly and didn't cut off the second half of my question. "Everything" and "Everything that would benefit you immediately" are not the same thing. But I don't think there's much to gain from more bickering here, let me just retract my comment.
        tempguy9999 7y ago
        That's very civil of you, upvoted. OK, now I can answer. It's all a balance of investment, payback (which can be direct - "gets me a job" - and nebulous life-quality stuff - "that's interesting!") and erm, my lifespan. I try to make those tradeoffs consciously. If I decide x is valuable but boring, these days I'll measure it against other priorities, if it wins I force myself to do it. So I try. It's an acquired skill which I'm still working on.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  Your mom and dad, or grandparents probably didn't need to know, even though they know how. Most of their interactions were with local businesses, with people who, like themselves, were part of the local community. The unofficial grapevine worked pretty well for rooting out the good and bad mechanics, lawyers and florists. Your dad could change the oil, but almost certainly knew which mechanics could be trusted to have done what was on the invoice, and the few to avoid at all costs. Mostly if really was OK not to care, because they knew someone who did. The network meant something. Doubly so in smaller towns, and yes, small town life came with some downsides too. :) That breaks horribly when recommendations are of global mega-multinationals, and most businesses on most high streets are national and international chains. A recommendation counts for nothing for a business of that scale, and an individual vote may be an employee you might never encounter again. The network means nothing, except as something to be gamed. Taking your custom elsewhere means nothing unless a million or two others do too. You have to care as no one else gives a shit about your interests, just the sale or commission. Except precisely none of us have the time for that. If we want the benefits of larger scale business I think we need to start giving them some responsibilities too. Like a duty of care in law as exists in some areas already, but further reaching to consider the public interest as a priority. Without something the power imbalance is impossible. Without constraint, large business takes the piss. It's time for some constraint. Then maybe we actually can depend on each other again.
  - Iv 7y ago
    My dad was dealing with international teams to manage semiconductors manufacturing at a global mega-multinationals. His dad was the trustworthy mechanics though, that's why he ended being good at cars repairs :-) I am the one living in the countryside not far from a middle-sized city. I do know, from local community's word of mouth the reliable and cheap mechanic and florist. Don't fell in the fallacy that things changed globally because you moved from one place to another ;-) Tracking reputation has never been easier. If you are interested in it, that is.
  - TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
    That's really the point of success in business - it gives you the ultimate privilege of hugely decreasing the odds that you'll be held responsible for damage you cause to others. Occasionally the wheels come off (maybe literally) and someone with significant power ends up in jail. But realistically - how often? Which is why software security and quality aren't a thing. There's no pressure to do the job properly and plenty of incentive not to.
- czechdeveloper 7y ago
  This I don't understand. You are interested in economy and politics, yet you don't know how to file taxes. Is that not connected? If you understand mechanics, yet can't do maintenance on your car, not even talking about fixing anything. This level of theoretical knowledge that can't overreach to reality to do basic tasks seems just irrelevant to me. What is it good for apart of talking about it?
  - saiya-jin 7y ago
    General curiosity in some topic? I can talk quite a bit about firearms, ammunition etc. yet I never owned a gun, shot altogether maybe 5-8 rounds in my whole life (apart from BB gun). I like watching youtube channels like Demolition ranch or Iraqveteran8888 for their technical expertise, viewpoints and just fun. Without any real expectation to ever own a gun to expand on this knowledge. Maybe some nice bow one day (which these channels don't even cover). Don't expect everybody acting rationally all the time, considering cost/benefit against all activities, or similar.
    - badpun 7y ago
      Is somebody who watches people draw in their youtube channels interested in drawing, or in watching people draw? I'd say it's the latter.
      - marcus_holmes 7y ago
        Are the billions of people who watch sportsball even capable of playing whatever variety of sportsball?
        badpun 7y ago
        That's my point - they're interested in following others play the sport, not in the sport itself.
    - czechdeveloper 7y ago
      I could not figure out an argument without sounding too confrontational toward you or OP, so sorry :). But if your knowledge can't fulfill your need in same field, what is that knowledge for, or is that even actual knowledge?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
isodude 7y ago
I can't respond directly to kissorgy because of shadow ban I guess. Anyway, yes the author says we are worse today, but keep in mind that we "just" connected a few billion devices. It will take a massive effort to get that fixed properly and keep all up to date security wise. Nevermind that goverments wants to ban security in some places.
- sgillen 7y ago
  > but keep in mind that we "just" connected a few billion devices. Yes exactly this. Information technology has improved at a totally crazy rate, and I think it's unrealistic to expect safety and sanity to keep pace, The internet has only been around for 30 odd years, and getting all this right takes time. To examine another technology, the automobile was invented in 1885, seat belts were invented more than 60 years later, and it was another decade or so until they were made mandatory for new cars (in the US at least).
neuronic 7y ago
And users should not need to care (too much). I drive a care and while I know some of the inner workings of an ICE, most people who drive do not and that's FINE. The car is a utility that people just want to work. Why is software expected to be different? Why should it be? Why does your grandma require a basic understanding of password security anyways?
ativzzz 7y ago
> If I click this button, this websites loads. As a user of technology, I want the exact same thing. I'll do research to build a PC, or install a new OS, and tinker with it until it works to my satisfaction. Then, I never want to touch the internals again and I want them to just work. I get very upset when my product stops working. Same for cars, cell phones, computers, etc. As software devs, it's our job to make this possible for users.

kissgyorgy 7y ago

> the journey to a perfect secure world will take some time The author argues that it will never happen because we are WORSE today than we were before and I agree with that.

Iv 7y ago

Thing is, it took me a long time to accept that people not caring was ok. Now I realize that my dad is frustrated I never learned something as simple as changing the oil on my car. My mom does not understand how I can't name more than two flowers and can't bake a pie. My legal-minded friends are astounded I do not take a day to work on my legal status to pay less taxes. Hell, my wife does the paperwork I am not even sure of the tax rate we are paying. And yet, I see myself as pretty curious, jack of all trade. I understand many things about CS, mechanics, electronics, manufacturing, politics, economics, ecology... We live in a complex world and we rely on each other to make it work. Love each other, we really depend on each other, it is easier if we don't consider others stupid for choosing different areas of skills.

isodude 7y ago
Thanks, this summarizes my thoughts quite neatly. And most importantly, love yourself and don't let others disinterest get to your spirit of making good.
Nition 7y ago
Just wanted to say this is a really good comment, thanks for putting it out there.
- Iv 7y ago
  Thanks, you made my day :-)
tempguy9999 7y ago
I can't accept that not caring is ok. The small "I don't care" extends into "I don't care about anything outside my immediate environment" and that has political and eventually global consequences. If their bank account is drained they will care, and get angry, and then maybe do something (but preferably the bank will recompense them in which case they feel better and go back to not caring). Some stuff you just can't do; as you say the world's too large, but many people don't want to put in the effort to learn stuff that would benefit them immediately, never mind over the longer term. I really do not understand people.
- CathedralBorrow 7y ago
  > many people don't want to put in the effort to learn stuff that would benefit them immediately I take it you're not counting yourself in that group? Have you already learned everything that would benefit you immediately?
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    It would be a better question if you asked it fairly: "Have you already learned everything". I did not suggest or imply 'everything' should be learnt.
    - CathedralBorrow 7y ago
      That's fair. Your comment would also be better if you quoted me fairly and didn't cut off the second half of my question. "Everything" and "Everything that would benefit you immediately" are not the same thing. But I don't think there's much to gain from more bickering here, let me just retract my comment.
      - tempguy9999 7y ago
        That's very civil of you, upvoted. OK, now I can answer. It's all a balance of investment, payback (which can be direct - "gets me a job" - and nebulous life-quality stuff - "that's interesting!") and erm, my lifespan. I try to make those tradeoffs consciously. If I decide x is valuable but boring, these days I'll measure it against other priorities, if it wins I force myself to do it. So I try. It's an acquired skill which I'm still working on.
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
Your mom and dad, or grandparents probably didn't need to know, even though they know how. Most of their interactions were with local businesses, with people who, like themselves, were part of the local community. The unofficial grapevine worked pretty well for rooting out the good and bad mechanics, lawyers and florists. Your dad could change the oil, but almost certainly knew which mechanics could be trusted to have done what was on the invoice, and the few to avoid at all costs. Mostly if really was OK not to care, because they knew someone who did. The network meant something. Doubly so in smaller towns, and yes, small town life came with some downsides too. :) That breaks horribly when recommendations are of global mega-multinationals, and most businesses on most high streets are national and international chains. A recommendation counts for nothing for a business of that scale, and an individual vote may be an employee you might never encounter again. The network means nothing, except as something to be gamed. Taking your custom elsewhere means nothing unless a million or two others do too. You have to care as no one else gives a shit about your interests, just the sale or commission. Except precisely none of us have the time for that. If we want the benefits of larger scale business I think we need to start giving them some responsibilities too. Like a duty of care in law as exists in some areas already, but further reaching to consider the public interest as a priority. Without something the power imbalance is impossible. Without constraint, large business takes the piss. It's time for some constraint. Then maybe we actually can depend on each other again.
- Iv 7y ago
  My dad was dealing with international teams to manage semiconductors manufacturing at a global mega-multinationals. His dad was the trustworthy mechanics though, that's why he ended being good at cars repairs :-) I am the one living in the countryside not far from a middle-sized city. I do know, from local community's word of mouth the reliable and cheap mechanic and florist. Don't fell in the fallacy that things changed globally because you moved from one place to another ;-) Tracking reputation has never been easier. If you are interested in it, that is.
- TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
  That's really the point of success in business - it gives you the ultimate privilege of hugely decreasing the odds that you'll be held responsible for damage you cause to others. Occasionally the wheels come off (maybe literally) and someone with significant power ends up in jail. But realistically - how often? Which is why software security and quality aren't a thing. There's no pressure to do the job properly and plenty of incentive not to.
czechdeveloper 7y ago
This I don't understand. You are interested in economy and politics, yet you don't know how to file taxes. Is that not connected? If you understand mechanics, yet can't do maintenance on your car, not even talking about fixing anything. This level of theoretical knowledge that can't overreach to reality to do basic tasks seems just irrelevant to me. What is it good for apart of talking about it?
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  General curiosity in some topic? I can talk quite a bit about firearms, ammunition etc. yet I never owned a gun, shot altogether maybe 5-8 rounds in my whole life (apart from BB gun). I like watching youtube channels like Demolition ranch or Iraqveteran8888 for their technical expertise, viewpoints and just fun. Without any real expectation to ever own a gun to expand on this knowledge. Maybe some nice bow one day (which these channels don't even cover). Don't expect everybody acting rationally all the time, considering cost/benefit against all activities, or similar.
  - badpun 7y ago
    Is somebody who watches people draw in their youtube channels interested in drawing, or in watching people draw? I'd say it's the latter.
    - marcus_holmes 7y ago
      Are the billions of people who watch sportsball even capable of playing whatever variety of sportsball?
      - badpun 7y ago
        That's my point - they're interested in following others play the sport, not in the sport itself.
  - czechdeveloper 7y ago
    I could not figure out an argument without sounding too confrontational toward you or OP, so sorry :). But if your knowledge can't fulfill your need in same field, what is that knowledge for, or is that even actual knowledge?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

isodude 7y ago

I can't respond directly to kissorgy because of shadow ban I guess. Anyway, yes the author says we are worse today, but keep in mind that we "just" connected a few billion devices. It will take a massive effort to get that fixed properly and keep all up to date security wise. Nevermind that goverments wants to ban security in some places.

sgillen 7y ago
> but keep in mind that we "just" connected a few billion devices. Yes exactly this. Information technology has improved at a totally crazy rate, and I think it's unrealistic to expect safety and sanity to keep pace, The internet has only been around for 30 odd years, and getting all this right takes time. To examine another technology, the automobile was invented in 1885, seat belts were invented more than 60 years later, and it was another decade or so until they were made mandatory for new cars (in the US at least).

neuronic 7y ago

And users should not need to care (too much). I drive a care and while I know some of the inner workings of an ICE, most people who drive do not and that's FINE. The car is a utility that people just want to work. Why is software expected to be different? Why should it be? Why does your grandma require a basic understanding of password security anyways?

ativzzz 7y ago

> If I click this button, this websites loads. As a user of technology, I want the exact same thing. I'll do research to build a PC, or install a new OS, and tinker with it until it works to my satisfaction. Then, I never want to touch the internals again and I want them to just work. I get very upset when my product stops working. Same for cars, cell phones, computers, etc. As software devs, it's our job to make this possible for users.