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You know, your position is very common. It stems from the belief that our brain is dissociated from our mind/identity, and therefore existential-like issues sho

You know, your position is very common. It stems from the belief that our brain is dissociated from our mind/identity, and therefore existential-like issues should be treated as separate from the brain. But that is incorrect, as any introductory neurology reading (such as the works of Oliver Sacks) will show. Our brain is a body organ. An extremely complex, elusive and puzzling body organ, but a body organ nonetheless. And, like any organ, sometimes it malfunctions. Wishful thinking won't cure a broken leg, and the same is true about the brain.

TimTheTinker 7y ago
> It stems from the belief that our brain is dissociated from our mind/identity, and therefore existential-like issues should be treated as separate from the brain. I have a "put on the brakes" mentality about hallucinogens, and it stems from a Christian worldview, where existential issues encompass both the brain and the mind/identity. If anyone is interested in knowing, the reasoning about hallucinogens from a Christian worldview would probably go something like: (a) everything in life has a spiritual implication or connection; (b) we are created above all to know and love God; (c) knowing God comes above all through being grounded in truth and reality, centered in the word of God (scripture), prayer, and community; (d) while hallucinogens seem to have some positive effects on the brain, they also cause one to have intense personal experiences that are disconnected from reality, potentially opening oneself to negative or false spiritual influences; and therefore (e) the major risk of hallucinogens is that they can alter people's spiritual capacity to know and desire God. As for using it to treat depression, anxiety, terminally diagnosed patients, etc. -- I would be the last to want to deprive distressed people of a straightforward cure. But I'd avoid recommending them anyhow: my fear would be that while hallucinogens might help temporarily (i.e. in this life), the effect in the next could be catastrophic because it may have contributed significantly to suppressing their innate human capacity to know God, find his love, grace, and forgiveness, and be satisfied in him. Meanwhile, there are other helpful ways to treat things like depression that God has given -- the beautiful natural world, for starters ("forest bathing" is a thing because it's a really good idea; modern cities contribute significantly to anxiety).
- bananamerica 7y ago
  1. I'm a Christian myself, and I see no contradiction between my religious beliefs and the rational conclusion that science tends to provide the best answers for a vast scope of phenomenons 2. I would never use hallucinogens out of my own volition. But, because science is credible, I would definitely do so if there were a reasonable consensus in the medical community that this category of drugs was beneficial for me. 3. I believe your idea of the effect of hallucinogens is incorrect. They do not disconnect one from reality but merely alters how such reality is perceived. One might even argue that hallucinogens can get you closer to "reality" (whatever that means...) by allowing you to notice a wider range of stimuli that is not available under normal conditions. 4. Maybe hallucinogens are gifts from God, like quinine, lithium, and penicillin.
  - TimTheTinker 7y ago
    I don't disagree with you. But your points (3) and (4) don't discount the problems inherent in altering one's perception of reality. Eph. 5:18 and similar texts warn "don't get drunk on wine" - not that wine itself is bad (au contrare!), but that too much alters one's perception of reality and leads one astray. I agree with your point (4) -- yes, all things God created are good, these substances included. There is no created thing that is inherently evil, only taking a good thing at the wrong time or in the wrong way. So in the case of hallucinogens, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with microdosing for particular purposes. My point is that since they're God-given, natural substances, there is a right and proper way to approach their use. But putting one's mind under their influence (or the influence of any other substance) would cross the line, Biblically speaking.
    - dwaltrip 7y ago
      Everything you do or experience "alters" your perception. It's just that we slowly build up habitual perceptual patterns and "tracks in the dirt" over many months and years of time, and so the changes usually occur too slowly or subtly for us to notice easily. But not always! On rare days, something happens... a long series of cumulative affects finally precipitates or something unexpected comes at us in the just right way, shattering our view. And then after a brief period of processing, we wake up the next morning with a different perspective. Psychedelics are like that in their own way. They seem to temporarily weaken these deeply-habitual thought patterns and perspectives, allowing one to look at things in a new way. It doesn't "alter" reality. It loosens our iron-grip on our own accumulated view of what we think reality should be. After the trip finishes, our grip re-strengthens, but it may be holding something slightly different, and perhaps a bit less desperately. It's pretty fascinating stuff. I think it can be a powerful tool for our well-being if we use it carefully. Emphasis on the careful use! They can certainly cause harm if they are misused.
kzrdude 7y ago
I just want healthy lifestyles to be part of the equation too. For mental problems just as for physical, sometimes the solution can be no medication and a healthier lifestyle instead. I've made this journey out of depression and it involves sleep, avoiding stress, gaining social contacts (slow!), exercise and diet.

TimTheTinker 7y ago

> It stems from the belief that our brain is dissociated from our mind/identity, and therefore existential-like issues should be treated as separate from the brain. I have a "put on the brakes" mentality about hallucinogens, and it stems from a Christian worldview, where existential issues encompass both the brain and the mind/identity. If anyone is interested in knowing, the reasoning about hallucinogens from a Christian worldview would probably go something like: (a) everything in life has a spiritual implication or connection; (b) we are created above all to know and love God; (c) knowing God comes above all through being grounded in truth and reality, centered in the word of God (scripture), prayer, and community; (d) while hallucinogens seem to have some positive effects on the brain, they also cause one to have intense personal experiences that are disconnected from reality, potentially opening oneself to negative or false spiritual influences; and therefore (e) the major risk of hallucinogens is that they can alter people's spiritual capacity to know and desire God. As for using it to treat depression, anxiety, terminally diagnosed patients, etc. -- I would be the last to want to deprive distressed people of a straightforward cure. But I'd avoid recommending them anyhow: my fear would be that while hallucinogens might help temporarily (i.e. in this life), the effect in the next could be catastrophic because it may have contributed significantly to suppressing their innate human capacity to know God, find his love, grace, and forgiveness, and be satisfied in him. Meanwhile, there are other helpful ways to treat things like depression that God has given -- the beautiful natural world, for starters ("forest bathing" is a thing because it's a really good idea; modern cities contribute significantly to anxiety).

bananamerica 7y ago
1. I'm a Christian myself, and I see no contradiction between my religious beliefs and the rational conclusion that science tends to provide the best answers for a vast scope of phenomenons 2. I would never use hallucinogens out of my own volition. But, because science is credible, I would definitely do so if there were a reasonable consensus in the medical community that this category of drugs was beneficial for me. 3. I believe your idea of the effect of hallucinogens is incorrect. They do not disconnect one from reality but merely alters how such reality is perceived. One might even argue that hallucinogens can get you closer to "reality" (whatever that means...) by allowing you to notice a wider range of stimuli that is not available under normal conditions. 4. Maybe hallucinogens are gifts from God, like quinine, lithium, and penicillin.
- TimTheTinker 7y ago
  I don't disagree with you. But your points (3) and (4) don't discount the problems inherent in altering one's perception of reality. Eph. 5:18 and similar texts warn "don't get drunk on wine" - not that wine itself is bad (au contrare!), but that too much alters one's perception of reality and leads one astray. I agree with your point (4) -- yes, all things God created are good, these substances included. There is no created thing that is inherently evil, only taking a good thing at the wrong time or in the wrong way. So in the case of hallucinogens, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with microdosing for particular purposes. My point is that since they're God-given, natural substances, there is a right and proper way to approach their use. But putting one's mind under their influence (or the influence of any other substance) would cross the line, Biblically speaking.
  - dwaltrip 7y ago
    Everything you do or experience "alters" your perception. It's just that we slowly build up habitual perceptual patterns and "tracks in the dirt" over many months and years of time, and so the changes usually occur too slowly or subtly for us to notice easily. But not always! On rare days, something happens... a long series of cumulative affects finally precipitates or something unexpected comes at us in the just right way, shattering our view. And then after a brief period of processing, we wake up the next morning with a different perspective. Psychedelics are like that in their own way. They seem to temporarily weaken these deeply-habitual thought patterns and perspectives, allowing one to look at things in a new way. It doesn't "alter" reality. It loosens our iron-grip on our own accumulated view of what we think reality should be. After the trip finishes, our grip re-strengthens, but it may be holding something slightly different, and perhaps a bit less desperately. It's pretty fascinating stuff. I think it can be a powerful tool for our well-being if we use it carefully. Emphasis on the careful use! They can certainly cause harm if they are misused.

kzrdude 7y ago

I just want healthy lifestyles to be part of the equation too. For mental problems just as for physical, sometimes the solution can be no medication and a healthier lifestyle instead. I've made this journey out of depression and it involves sleep, avoiding stress, gaining social contacts (slow!), exercise and diet.