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I am reminding myself to be a little critical of this future domain of psychadelics used as mood stabilizers for the masses. While human history is rich with t

I am reminding myself to be a little critical of this future domain of psychadelics used as mood stabilizers for the masses. While human history is rich with tales of alchemy and mind altering substances, the usage was often ritualised and functioning in a "sacred" or communal context. I personally experimented with some of these substances, and i intuitively see them as a potential great leap forward compared to the potential horror of opiates, benzodiazepines or life long SSRI use - but i also feel a vague dark undercurrent running through this newfound mainstream appreciation of psychedelics just as Mindfulness has become a utility or a tool removed from its context or even it's original meaning whatever that may be. My own struggle with living a healthy life in 21. century "technocapitalist society" or whatever has led me to believe that most depression is not "just a chemical imbalance", "a lack of appreciation or gratitude" or a "lazy mindset" - instead depression is _often not always_ closer to an evolutionary mechanism telling you that "something is wrong" and you need to take radical steps to remove yourself from X situation whether it be social, about lifestyle or about geographic location - the opposite can also be true, that you need to be accepted by a tribe, reach out for guidance or establish new relationships. Modern humans are in general pretty lonely, skin hungry, lack communal connection, touch, intimacy, a good proper diet, connection with nature, meaning/spirituality in a social context, have bad posture, are stressed out, have horrible sleep patterns etc. compared to our evolutionary blueprint or just compared to the societies of a few decades ago - without romanticising too much. In other words; it's not weird that people are depressed in this day and age spending so much time inside, not being close to friends / family, not moving about enough . And i am not convinced that mainstream palliative care is sufficient or even the right approach the problem. It's about restructuring local community, our cities and our daily lives. Anyway i currently se this as being very promising, and a am still endlessly fascinated by the philosophy and science of consciousness, meditative praxis and psychedelics, so i am not against that aspect but critical of the utilitarian mindset behind this type of use. EDIT: I can see that i receive quite a lot of downvotes. Can anyone elaborate?

WhompingWindows 7y ago
How is it not a "natural" way of life to imbibe natural compounds from plants and fungi that have been imbibed for tens of thousands of years? THC, CBD, and psilocybin, as well as many other compounds like coffee, tea, chocolate, caffeine, etc. have been part of human diets for countless generations. There are even biological theories that state that these plants and humans co-evolved, with humans spreading around the plants intentionally and unintentionally, and selecting those plants with "positive" effects and thus co-evolution occurred.
- chaos_emergent 7y ago
  I don't think that kossTKR said anything about the ingestion of these substances being unnatural; rather, their implication is that psychedelics are poised as a solution to the depressive symptoms that we feel by nature of living in the societies that we do. In other words: instead of fixing some of the symptoms caused by society, why not change society and the ways that we live? There are strong parallels in western notions of mindfulness. In our society mindfulness/meditation are considered tools that helps us mitigate stress. The original intent was to stop the sources of stress and suffering by developing one's mind, but western interpretations fall far shorter of that, opting for a grotesquely simplified and amputated version of the original philosophy that aids in placating the masses rather than bringing about fundamental changes to the ways we live.
- kossTKR 7y ago
  I don't disagree. Also i am all for this small step towards hopefully an eventual legalisation! I even wrote that i tried them myself. I just wanted to illuminate a certain aspect of mainstream, adoption that i find potentially problematic but apparently that's not something people really want to discuss at this moment in time i can se by the torrent of downvotes. To elaborate it's the same dillema that widespread corporate Mindfulness presents, or the problem of using all kinds of other -in essence beautiful/profound measures- but in a decontextualised and corporate context to push depressed workers or the general standing reserve to perform better while the "true" solutions are actually about rights, real-wages, loneliness, painfully long work hours or other classical problems that psychedelics won't help you with. A good "bad trip" can help you "wake up" and realise that your life circumstances are unnatural and bad and make you want to steer you life in another direction and that's beautiful. But if psychedelics becomes a way to push an already stressed out population to find meaning and beauty in horrible conditions then that's not a good thing - just as weed as a life long sedative is also a bit depressing i my eyes. Chop wood and carry water but don't remove the context of doing it. Just like rituals, myth, community and location worked as context for psychedelics. This is - at least i think - is important to remember when re-introducing powerful concepts. It's because it's very very potent that we need to be critical.
WarDores 7y ago
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. Apparently the HN crowd is all-in on "the drugs I already enjoy/want to enjoy have scientific backing" even if they're being presented as a cure-all that should warrant skepticism. I also think that maybe looking at environmental factors for depression is common sense. Instead of drugging everyone, maybe we should take a look at how society is structured and make some changes there. It's not either-or.
- ivl 7y ago
  > Apparently the HN crowd is all-in on "the drugs I already enjoy/want to enjoy have scientific backing" even if they're being presented as a cure-all that should warrant skepticism. I wonder if it's a side effect of wishing for their legality? I mean, I am skeptical of psychedelics as a cure all. But I'll happily blow smoke up anyone's ass if it'll get it off the idiotic scheduling so I can enjoy them without risk.
wise0wl 7y ago
Howdy. So, you're not wrong. The promise of psychadelic use in therapy is not that it "cures" the patient of their depression, or even gives them relief. The drug is not the drug. The "drug" is the experience that they allow the patient to have. You talk about modern humans lacking connectivity, proper diet, connection with nature, meaning---the psychadelic in question allows your brain to observe it's own memories, emotions, desires, and traumas more objectively and allows a perspective where change is possible. The default paths your brain takes when making decisions are obscured or flattened out, so you have more possibilities. If someone has depression, guilt, and ruminates on trauma psychadelics allow you to confront that trauma without the manufactured personality our ego has created to deal with the trauma. Viewing something objectively, or even subjectively but from a different perspective can vastly alter your "sober" perspective of that trauma / event / emotion. tl;dr: Think of psychadelics as a tool that can allow the mind to introspect objectively
TheOperator 7y ago
I think you're completely right and this extends out of the topics of psychadelics and into the value of mental health resources. We're spending more than ever before and negative metrics like suicide and drug use are way up. It does feel like ineffectual knee-jerk firefighting. Yet I don't think psychadelics having utility to people nessecarily precludes fixing our lives and societies more generally.
proverbialbunny 7y ago
>just as Mindfulness has become a utility or a tool removed from its context or even it's original meaning whatever that may be Meditation has historically been around longer than mankind was writing, and has historically always been used to end psychological stress. So much so, Buddhism exists as a program for one to get "enlightened" which is the end of dukkha, and dukkha means psychological stress. Enlightenment is the end of psychological stress. It's a prehistoric therapy that is so helpful it continues to live on longer than just about anything else we know today. Calling meditation a tool is actually the original use for it, as far back as we have documented. It's how it's taught in Buddhist circles. It's only a tool. However, you're not entirely wrong either. Half of the teachings that revolve around ending dukkha is in the western world reserved to word of mouth teaching or deep dives into suttas (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ https://www.accesstoinsight.org/). It is rare to find a meditation teacher that will teach the other half. The reason for this is that process towards enlightenment, that missing half, is being replaced with working with a therapist. However, modern day therapy still has a ways to go when compared to the ancient teachings that are meant to be taught along side meditation instructions.

WhompingWindows 7y ago

How is it not a "natural" way of life to imbibe natural compounds from plants and fungi that have been imbibed for tens of thousands of years? THC, CBD, and psilocybin, as well as many other compounds like coffee, tea, chocolate, caffeine, etc. have been part of human diets for countless generations. There are even biological theories that state that these plants and humans co-evolved, with humans spreading around the plants intentionally and unintentionally, and selecting those plants with "positive" effects and thus co-evolution occurred.

chaos_emergent 7y ago
I don't think that kossTKR said anything about the ingestion of these substances being unnatural; rather, their implication is that psychedelics are poised as a solution to the depressive symptoms that we feel by nature of living in the societies that we do. In other words: instead of fixing some of the symptoms caused by society, why not change society and the ways that we live? There are strong parallels in western notions of mindfulness. In our society mindfulness/meditation are considered tools that helps us mitigate stress. The original intent was to stop the sources of stress and suffering by developing one's mind, but western interpretations fall far shorter of that, opting for a grotesquely simplified and amputated version of the original philosophy that aids in placating the masses rather than bringing about fundamental changes to the ways we live.
kossTKR 7y ago
I don't disagree. Also i am all for this small step towards hopefully an eventual legalisation! I even wrote that i tried them myself. I just wanted to illuminate a certain aspect of mainstream, adoption that i find potentially problematic but apparently that's not something people really want to discuss at this moment in time i can se by the torrent of downvotes. To elaborate it's the same dillema that widespread corporate Mindfulness presents, or the problem of using all kinds of other -in essence beautiful/profound measures- but in a decontextualised and corporate context to push depressed workers or the general standing reserve to perform better while the "true" solutions are actually about rights, real-wages, loneliness, painfully long work hours or other classical problems that psychedelics won't help you with. A good "bad trip" can help you "wake up" and realise that your life circumstances are unnatural and bad and make you want to steer you life in another direction and that's beautiful. But if psychedelics becomes a way to push an already stressed out population to find meaning and beauty in horrible conditions then that's not a good thing - just as weed as a life long sedative is also a bit depressing i my eyes. Chop wood and carry water but don't remove the context of doing it. Just like rituals, myth, community and location worked as context for psychedelics. This is - at least i think - is important to remember when re-introducing powerful concepts. It's because it's very very potent that we need to be critical.

WarDores 7y ago

Not sure why you're getting downvoted. Apparently the HN crowd is all-in on "the drugs I already enjoy/want to enjoy have scientific backing" even if they're being presented as a cure-all that should warrant skepticism. I also think that maybe looking at environmental factors for depression is common sense. Instead of drugging everyone, maybe we should take a look at how society is structured and make some changes there. It's not either-or.

ivl 7y ago
> Apparently the HN crowd is all-in on "the drugs I already enjoy/want to enjoy have scientific backing" even if they're being presented as a cure-all that should warrant skepticism. I wonder if it's a side effect of wishing for their legality? I mean, I am skeptical of psychedelics as a cure all. But I'll happily blow smoke up anyone's ass if it'll get it off the idiotic scheduling so I can enjoy them without risk.

wise0wl 7y ago

Howdy. So, you're not wrong. The promise of psychadelic use in therapy is not that it "cures" the patient of their depression, or even gives them relief. The drug is not the drug. The "drug" is the experience that they allow the patient to have. You talk about modern humans lacking connectivity, proper diet, connection with nature, meaning---the psychadelic in question allows your brain to observe it's own memories, emotions, desires, and traumas more objectively and allows a perspective where change is possible. The default paths your brain takes when making decisions are obscured or flattened out, so you have more possibilities. If someone has depression, guilt, and ruminates on trauma psychadelics allow you to confront that trauma without the manufactured personality our ego has created to deal with the trauma. Viewing something objectively, or even subjectively but from a different perspective can vastly alter your "sober" perspective of that trauma / event / emotion. tl;dr: Think of psychadelics as a tool that can allow the mind to introspect objectively

TheOperator 7y ago

I think you're completely right and this extends out of the topics of psychadelics and into the value of mental health resources. We're spending more than ever before and negative metrics like suicide and drug use are way up. It does feel like ineffectual knee-jerk firefighting. Yet I don't think psychadelics having utility to people nessecarily precludes fixing our lives and societies more generally.

proverbialbunny 7y ago

>just as Mindfulness has become a utility or a tool removed from its context or even it's original meaning whatever that may be Meditation has historically been around longer than mankind was writing, and has historically always been used to end psychological stress. So much so, Buddhism exists as a program for one to get "enlightened" which is the end of dukkha, and dukkha means psychological stress. Enlightenment is the end of psychological stress. It's a prehistoric therapy that is so helpful it continues to live on longer than just about anything else we know today. Calling meditation a tool is actually the original use for it, as far back as we have documented. It's how it's taught in Buddhist circles. It's only a tool. However, you're not entirely wrong either. Half of the teachings that revolve around ending dukkha is in the western world reserved to word of mouth teaching or deep dives into suttas (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ https://www.accesstoinsight.org/). It is rare to find a meditation teacher that will teach the other half. The reason for this is that process towards enlightenment, that missing half, is being replaced with working with a therapist. However, modern day therapy still has a ways to go when compared to the ancient teachings that are meant to be taught along side meditation instructions.