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Master–Slave Morality
- synlatexc 7y agoReminded of this quote from Cannery Row: "It has always seemed strange to me, the things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second."
- tsimionescu 7y agoI think the biggest issue is that for the system to succeed, most participants need to display the first list of traits. But for any individual within the system, personal success may be easier to obtain by displaying the second set (though that is not necessarily true, in my experience).
- devmunchies 7y ago>most participants need to display the first list of traits That's exactly how it is. Those with a slave morality are controlled, guided, and protected by those with a master morality to keep society running. A society of masters moralities will eventually develop a pecking order and will recalibrate itself.
- dvdhnt 7y agoA few years ago, I did a bit of research into how social programs in Scandinavia were able to take root. My initial hypothesis was - they must be more selfless than a traditional American, so let me find what makes that so. However, after doing my anecdotal reading, I came away with the belief they are just as, if not more, selfish than Americans, but Swedes for example, are able to support programs because they understand they might need them at some point. That took me back to another common quote, that Americans see themselves not as poor but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires. Again, all anecdotal.
- wppick 7y agoIt's like the person in the sportscar weaving through traffic on the highway. He can only do it because everyone else drives carefully and predictably. He gets to his destination faster, and thinks he is a much better driver than everyone else, but if everyone drove like him the traffic "system" would fall apart. The master mindset is sacrificing the well working system for personal gain. If you want to go fast go alone. If you want to go far go together. What's not good for the hive is not good for the bee.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- defertoreptar 7y agoEgoism frames this in such a way where the second set of "bad" traits are the authentic human traits, namely self-interest. The "good" traits are then secondary, a means to an end. E.g. we are honest and don't steal because the legal and social consequences are not worth it. We see the path to a life where we best get what we want as the one where we cooperate with others. This could explain Adam Smith's "invisible hand" of markets, where everyone acts in their own self-interest, but the whole prospers as a result.
- agumonkey 7y agoMaybe a reason why so many are so fond of mafia movies.
- watwut 7y agoI dont think so. The mafia movies go out of their way to show mafia men relatable, courageous, smart, overcoming adversity, having good motivation initially. Their victims are either not shown, deserve it, weak (instead of principled), or are just not relatable cartoon characters with no real backstory. The consequences of their acts are not really shown. So they end up being adventure movies essentially where main character shows smarts.
- agumonkey 7y agoI'm not entirely sure, there's a lot of basic crime mindset in the most famous titles. It's not will hunting or shawshank redemption smart, far from that.
- cylon13 7y agoI'm just too nice to be one of those jerk CEOs that society wants. That's why I'm not successful. /s This sounds a lot like "nice guy" syndrome, to be honest. Edit: Added /s just to be clear.
- devmunchies 7y agoyou can be firm and forward without being a jerk. Jerk: this looks like shit, do it again. Not Jerk: almost there. let's do another iteration.
- cylon13 7y agoYeah exactly, that's part of what I'm getting at. The post I replied to sounds wise because it appeals to negative stereotypes about successful people while giving non-successful people a way to feel superior about their non-success. The truth is a lot of successful people are nice, have good people skills, are generous etc.
- stanski 7y agoI can't be the only one thinking this would be an article on drive replication.
- jolmg 7y agoI was thinking of 2 drives on an IDE cable[1], until I read "Morality". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA#Multiple_devices_on_a_cable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA#Multiple_devices_... (kind of wondering if that use of Master-Slave is so old that I really needed to cite it...)
- jotm 7y agoYep, had flashbacks of PATA configuration problems, as well :D
- KirinDave 7y agoThis is not a meaningful or interesting article for Hacker News, and in the world of Philosophy this is not a slam dunk of a concept.
- w-j-w 7y agoImagine being uninterested in the human condition.
- crehn 7y agoCounterargument: it was meaningful and interesting to me.
- 0db532a0 7y agoContextualise, under Nietzsche's master-slave moralities, the following topics over which there is an abundance of articles and discussions on HN, posted by people who frequent HN: Gender/racial equality, language games over gender, rights to be called one name or another, the elusive one percent, supposed rights to privacy and free speech, the right not to incriminate oneself, the pornification/glorification of work, the hustle, start-up culture, premium mediocrity etc.
- KirinDave 7y agoSo do many philosophical systems. They've been shot down many times before as irrelevant. Because Nietzsche is popular with certain vocal minorities on HN who are eager to make him look more credible than he has ever actually been on this topic is the only reason it's gotten this far, whereas other philosophical frameworks that have been floated here have been moderated away as immaterial. And behold, the mods seem to have agreed to remove this from the front page. So at least we are being consistent. > language games over gender Don't think I didn't catch this, lil NRx buddy.
- woodruffw 7y agoThe SEP[1] is probably a better reference than Wikipedia for most philosophical topics, especially for individuals like Nietzsche (who, for various reasons, tends to find himself in the intersection of vaguely reactionary thinkers and people who want to read philosophy without seriously engaging with the rest of the canon). In particular, this Wikipedia article gives the incorrect impression that Nietzsche is especially cynical about divine command and deontological ethics and implies that the MS divide is in some ways constructive. Neither is the case: Nietzsche's moral cynicism is universal and the MS divide is meant to be descriptive, not prescriptive or constructive. [1]: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nietzsche-moral-political/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nietzsche-moral-political...
- 0db532a0 7y agoThanks for posting. I posted the Wikipedia page mainly as a basis for discussion. I am going to have a read. I didn't find such a prescriptive or constructive element in the Wikipedia page, though. See final paragraph in the "Society" section.
- friendlybus 7y agoI've only read a bit of the SEP but more websites like that would be amazing. Well structured, clear and easy to read.
- tpresa 7y ago> Nietzsche's moral cynicism is universal and the MS divide is meant to be descriptive, not prescriptive or constructive. Could you elaborate? Nietzsche's usage of slave morality seems pejorative to me, and I wouldn't characterise Nietzsche's stance as an universal moral cynicism; his method does not aim at an universal conclusion. Funny enough, this illustrates well why it is difficult to find good reads on Nietzsche, it is not easy to summarise his positions briefly and without equivocation.
- dr_dshiv 7y agoYeah, my read of the SEP is that they are delicately saying ("metaethically") that Nietzsche was an A-hole.
- slowenough 7y agoHypothesis: In a liberal democracy, when leaders adopts a persona of master morality, the slaves are threatened. If leaders instead project a slave morality, the slaves are peaceable and content. But behind the scenes, it seems like a state needs to rule with master morality, but for peaceableness, promote the adoption of slave morality among the slaves. Controversial view: Christianity is a perfect ruling tool because it incentivizes slave morality which keeps people peaceful. Caveat: I'm not saying Christ wasn't real nor an amazing person. Just noting how the religion could be co-opted for ruling purpose.
- slowenough 7y agoHypothesis: In a liberal democracy, when leaders adopts a persona of master morality, the slaves are threatened. If leaders instead project a slave morality, the slaves are peaceable and content. But behind the scenes, it seems like a state needs to rule with master morality, but for peaceableness, promote the adoption of slave morality among the slaves. Controversial view: Christianity is a perfect ruling tool because it incentivizes slave morality which keeps people peaceful. Caveat: I'm not saying Christ wasn't real nor an amazing person. Just noting how the religion could be co-opted for ruling purpose.
- UnFleshedOne 7y agoWhy is it a controversial view? I thought it was a general view that this was exactly why monotheism of this sort got enthusiastically adopted and enforced by monarchies -- one true god, one true king, sheeple and all that.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- slowenough 7y agoThe trigger for controversy on HN is quite fine.
- yorwba 7y ago
- sam_lowry_ 7y agoShouldn't we rename this wikipedia page into Leader-Follower morality?
- golf3 7y agoPrimary-Secondary Morality
- handedness 7y agoWhy should we?
- sam_lowry_ 7y agoTo follow the trend.
- 1998v2 7y agoClassroom morality: the behaviors that make the teacher's day easier and get good grades. Playground morality: the behaviors that make a kid popular and respected by the other children. ... This Nietzsche is interesting and it hit me like a slap in the face when I first encountered it, but the most fleshed out and vivid form of this type of thinking is Ribbonfarm Gervaise Principle articles.
- dr_dshiv 7y agoI came away with a feeling that the article was not representative. It felt creepy, even. It's frankly a disgusting argument.
- 0db532a0 7y agoMaybe you should look at the book Moral Psychology with Nietzsche: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/moral-psychology-with-nietzsche-9780199696505 https://global.oup.com/academic/product/moral-psychology-wit....
- dr_dshiv 7y agoThanks for the reference, it looks good. What's the takeaway?
- 0db532a0 7y agoValidation of Nietzsche's ideas in more of a modern, scientific context. Thinking about a person's morality as originating from a person's psychology.
- dr_dshiv 7y agoWhat does it mean to scientifically validate Nietzsche's ideas? What invalidated the ideas in the first place? I'm assuming the association with Nazis and Mussolini.
- 0db532a0 7y agoValidating them in the sense of using the ideas as a model to understand our own psychology, and the origins of our moralities. Showing that certain ideas that Nietzsche held around free will and the nature/nurture debate hold up to scientific scrutiny.
- bitL 7y agoAn example why German philosophy of late 19th century is considered deranged by many... Cherry picking some facts, dissecting them in detail, reassembling them in some convincing fashion, pretending conclusions are true without any proof of causality and then just observing how that philosophy spreads like wildfire among people that want to look trendy, contributing to two world wars later.
- beebmam 7y agoNietzsche's philosophy had a profound influence on the colonial wars that Europe fought, and the world wars that were fought in Europe. What an absolute humanitarian travesty that era was.
- thanatropism 7y agoSimilarly-named (I mistook OP for this) but much, much more interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%E2%80%93slave_dialectic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%E2%80%93slave_dialectic
- vearwhershuh 7y agoKids are to Nietzsche as Wilhelm Reich claimed masturbation is to the idea of God: It is pointless to argue with a Nietzschean. Simply get them to have kids, and the ideas of Nietzsche evaporate.
- DoreenMichele 7y agoSomething I wrote previously: http://genevievefiles.blogspot.com/2019/09/putting-victimhood-behind-you.html http://genevievefiles.blogspot.com/2019/09/putting-victimhoo...