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I've been reading a book called "How to Change Your Mind"[1] which contains a collection of history, anecdotes, trip reports, and some of the science behind the

I've been reading a book called "How to Change Your Mind"[1] which contains a collection of history, anecdotes, trip reports, and some of the science behind these types of drugs. The book mostly discusses psilocybin and LSD, but it also touches on some of the other related drugs. If you're curious and want to learn more, it's worth a read. The one thing I'll say is that it seems like these drugs affect the brain in a way that's more akin to a super-placebo, rather than being therapeutic on their own. In other words, you would need to use the drugs in combination with therapy to obtain good results. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Change_Your_Mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Change_Your_Mind

jrowley 7y ago
I definitely would not consider them to be in the class of drugs as a traditional placebo, in the sense that they drastically alter your sense of consciousness and reality, but you are getting at important component which is that these drugs should be coupled with pre-trip planning therapy and post-trip integration therapy in clinical settings. Great book btw. I highly recommend it anyone who is curious about the subject.
- moretai 7y ago
  How do you know that the shift in consciousness/reality is not just an illusion?
  - brenden2 7y ago
    It is an illusion, but at the same time it's not. It's 100% real to the person perceiving the shift, and in the case of treating mental illness that's all that really counts. It's not so much about how it works or why it works, it's mostly about the result.
  - dwaltrip 7y ago
    They have measured very distinct changes in brain functioning.
  - wavefunction 7y ago
    It's actually a change in perception and perspective. Since consciousness and reality are subjective results of individual perception and perspective, there is an altering of consciousness and experienced reality. Perception being perceiving and mapping out the external world outside of the individual mind. And perspective then deriving a meaningful relationship between "I" and external Abstract or Concrete Things X.
  - empath75 7y ago
    what does that even mean? There is absolutely zero chance that there is a placebo effect in psychedelics. It’s a mind shattering experience. Obviously the hallucinations are illusory but the fact that you are having them is not.
    - semi-extrinsic 7y ago
      To nitpick: it's accurate to say that there is zero chance that the effect of psychedelics is just a placebo effect. This does not mean that there is zero placebo effect involved with taking psychedelics. The latter statement would mean your experience is identical between actively taking a psychedelic and someone slipping some in your drink. I'd say this is unlikely, no? We know for lots of other drugs, both therapeutic and recreational, that there is always a placebo component as well as a "real" one. This is why people do placebo-controlled trials. You take 100 people and give them ibuprofen against joint pain, then you give another 100 people sugar pills against joint pain. Then you record their pain reduction on some scale, and the placebo scores 2 +/- 1 points, and the ibuprofen scores 7 +/- 1 points. So you say ibuprofen has a significantly better effect than placebo, but (probably) 2/7th of the ibuprofen effect is due to placebo.
      - empath75 7y ago
        Yeah, i understand that, but the point of a placebo is that you don't know whether you got the medicine being tested or not. I can assure you that you will be left with zero doubt about whether you received a psychedelic or not, unless it's a very small dose.
        homonculus1 7y ago
        You're thinking of a blind study, strictly speaking a placebo is simply any pharmaceutically inert substance. You can take a placebo knowingly and in fact knowing that it's not medicine doesn't stop you from getting the benefits of the placebo effect.
  - bantheads 7y ago
    How do you know reality is not just an illusion?
- stemsux 7y ago
  I can't think of many things more likely to induce a horrible trip than some credentialed "therapist" telling me what to do in a "clinal setting".
  - realbarack 7y ago
    Consider expanding your definition of what a "therapist" could be and what a "clinical setting" could look like. Michael Pollan's interactions with the therapists (they're called "guides") in "How to Change Your Mind" are not clinical at all in the sense of sterility, beige-walled offices etc.
    - stemsux 7y ago
      So some goofy guy whose parents paid for an online masters degree in trip therapy gets to bill my insurance $200 an hour? Meh, I'll take my chances on the black market.
      - realbarack 7y ago
        Pollan actually does go on the black market (still probably $200/hour though). You can't legally get a psychedelic trip guide in the US right now. The point is that the exact people who are well-known and respected as black-market guides would become therapists in a world where such a profession were legal!
        jrochkind1 7y ago
        > You can't legally get a psychedelic trip guide in the US right now. Not entirely true, although only a few, there have been and continue to be legal studies involving psilocybin (also MDMA) in addition to the one in the OP. Here is a smoking cessation study in Baltimore, involving a psilocybin psychedelic trip. https://www.quitsmokingbaltimore.org/ https://www.quitsmokingbaltimore.org/ Here's an article about the findings of the 2014 pilot study on the same thing which describes the methodology to some extent. https://hub.jhu.edu/2014/09/11/magic-mushrooms-smoking/ https://hub.jhu.edu/2014/09/11/magic-mushrooms-smoking/
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- lhuser123 7y ago
  .
  - AnthonBerg 7y ago
    I am fairly sure that rigorous scientific research has shown that this is not the case.
  - robotdongs 7y ago
    For LSD and Psilocybin I'm not sure if Toxin is the right word. From my layman understanding, LSD and Psilocybin mimic naturally occurring proteins that bind to certain receptors in your brain triggering release of chemicals like serotonin, dopamine and etc. Your brains natural processes will "clean-up" the LSD and psilocybin just like it would for your body's natural analogs.
  - collyw 7y ago
    You have never tried psychedelics have you? They often have the opposite effect of what you have speculated on.
  - mytdi 7y ago
    Why did you delete your comment? I really appreciated it and actually bookmarked it specifically. I know it probably wasn't popular among consumers, buy I liked it and agreed with it. I actually have witnessed exactly what you describe in people I know.
    - lhuser123 7y ago
      Thanks. You’re right. It was stupid for me to delete it. I will repost it here with the caveat that I wrote it on impulse. It’s an oversimplification of a really complicated subject. > The way I think of these drugs is just that they flood your brain with toxins. That in itself will make it not work properly. But the scary part is that the more time your brain spend intoxicated the more likely you start loosing or weakening connections. If you weaken connections only for the bad memories, that would be a good thing. But what if you weaken the connections for other important things in your life ? Like self control, moral values, family love, etc.
lm28469 7y ago
> more akin to a super-placebo, rather than being therapeutic on their own. As far as I can tell, from my own experience, lsd kind of make you see your own actions/thoughts as an observer[0], it's a very useful tool if you're into introspection. If you're not used to introspection it can be quite unsettling though. [0] >50ug <400ug, after that you just look a the ceiling and enjoy the lights
- senorjazz 7y ago
  > >50ug <400ug That is a huge difference. 400ug is a big dose and 50ug barely noticable. Anyone reading this without experience going for 400 is going to get knocked for six
  - lm28469 7y ago
    Ah yeah definitely don't go for 400u for your first time. I assume no one would think "that random dude on HN recommended 400ug" and go for it without more research though. 50-150 is more manageable for a beginner.
    - AnthonBerg 7y ago
      The 150 end of the range as a first time can be manageable for some and can be quite intense for others. Some research suggests a “30-40 microgram trip first, then a 60-80 microgram before anything larger, then a 120-140 microgram before anything larger, then either stopping there (this was the dosage that resulted in the highest increase in well-being) or doing a 170-240 microgram trip.” — https://tripsafe.org/how-to-take-lsd/#start-small https://tripsafe.org/how-to-take-lsd/#start-small
      - filleokus 7y ago
        Another issue is the, albeit anecdotal, inaccuracy of LSD concentration in black market products. If you are aiming for a 100 ug dose, and blotters marketed as 100 ug can range from 50-150 ug, its quite hard to do proper dosage. Darknet markets have however probably improved the situation with accountability and reviews from customer.
WhompingWindows 7y ago
Super placebo is a scientifically incorrect description. These drugs suppress activity of the default mode network of the brain, which is a sort of "conductor" of the brain, which chooses which "instruments" to prioritize and how to allocate the train of thought. All of the different parts of your mind are able to sing out more creatively and independently, forging new paths that they are not accustomed to taking -- this is why it's great for mental illnesses like depression, anxiety, alcoholism, smoking -- it allows your mind an incredible flexibility. In my personal experiences with psychedelics, these drugs remove mental heuristics, allowing the mind to think unimpeded by usual thought patterns, simply accepting raw data as it comes in. This was striking in sensory information, if you closed your eyes or just stared at something long enough, you observed incredibly different visual input, geometric patterns, greatly strengthened colors (a strawberry was INCREDIBLY beautiful, I almost felt bad eating such a beautiful entity). There was also an incredible inter-disciplinary thought process, I felt the musical, mathematical, computational, logical, natural, all these parts of my mind mixed together wonderfully. LSD was much longer lasting, around 12 hours, whereas psilocybin was around 6 hours. Psilocybin enhanced my connection with nature, the flying bugs, a handful of berries, and the plants all around me caused an effusion of love and connection. Whereas with LSD, I felt an extremely powerful visual stimulation, the changing fall leaves were extremely vibrant and beautiful, it was akin to 12 hour, mentally-clear cannabis high. I didn't experience any "flashbacks" per se, there was a positive glow in my mood and thoughts for around 5 days, and the day after LSD I still had lingering effects...I also wonder if I will evermore look at the surface of ponds and lakes differently, they have an incredible dynamism and vitality that I appreciated even more on first trip. For anyone considering psychedelics, do it thoughtfully and methodically. Read the book mentioned in the parent, practice meditation, explore your mind, and really ensure your mindset ("set") is positive and open. Further, plan to occupy a peaceful, quiet place, hopefully lacking too many strangers/social interaction ("setting"). If set and setting are good, you're in for a wonderful time.
- moretai 7y ago
  Is there a way to induce this feeling without the aid of psychedelics or breathwork?
crazygringo 7y ago
Yes they need to be used in conjunction with therapy... but kind of like a surgeon's tools need to be used in conjunction with a surgeon. There's absolutely nothing placebo-like whatsoever about psilocybin, any more than a surgeon's tools are placebos. It's an extremely powerful tool that can be applied in a therapeutic context.
- inspector-g 7y ago
  All treatment modalities have a placebo effect. Including surgery. See: decades of modern research on sham surgeries.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - neonate 7y ago
    True of course, but having a placebo effect is not the same as being a placebo. Non-placebos have other effects too.
    - strbean 7y ago
      The term "super-placebo" is silly in the first place. Any effective treatment is a "super-placebo" - it works better than placebo.
2OEH8eoCRo0 7y ago
Haven't read it but Michael Pollan is a good egg.
throwaway1126 7y ago
I won't pretend to understand the neuroscience, but consider: Today's antidepressants work by affecting your serotonin. Another serotonin-affecting drug comes along, and it's assumed to be "placebo"? Personally I tried it. A very low dose completely wipes out any depression or negative thought for weeks at a time. Way better than zoloft.
- newnewpdro 7y ago
  Agreed. I'm surprised by the focus on large psychedelic trip doses and placebos in this thread. It's basically two opposing extremes. I too have observed incredible effects of taking small below-threshold doses of psilocybin, with absolutely no negative effect whatsoever. It's tempting to incorporate half a stem into my regular morning routine like a vitamin.
sharkweek 7y ago
Another vote for this book - I deal with OCD, and thus my brain is always thrusting all sorts of wild and crazy fears through my consciousness. I'm not sure I have the stomach to try a psychedelic to try and treat it, as I've seen some success with exposure therapy, but the curiosity is there. I also had some pretty bad experiences with marijuana when I was younger (college), that have kind of scarred my ability to relax before taking any drugs. There's a part in the book where it was either him on one of his experimental trips or maybe it was someone he interviewed, but while tripping, they were faced with some terribly scary images. The person tripping said to their therapist guide that they were scared of whatever they were seeing and wanted to run away. The therapist suggested instead that they turn around and face head on whatever it was that they were seeing that scared them. Stare at it, observe it, take it in. After they did so, the thing they thought they were so afraid of ended up not being so bad, and they sort of peacefully coexisted with it for a bit longer in the trip until the thing went away. This is how I try and frame the scary things that run through my brain, it's normal to be afraid of bad thoughts, but also learning how to peacefully coexist with them is pretty healthy.
- ata_aman 7y ago
  I honestly thought I wrote this as I was reading. I’ve had the exact same bad experiences, essentially everytime I tried it. First time being the one that started it all where I accidentally ate two full brownies. That scarred me. Second time I almost lost all motor skills for a few minutes. The last time it happened I decided to change the experience when I felt it start. This time, instead of fighting it, I just let go and basically tricked myself into enjoying it and boy was it great. I know the feeling of a bad experience, but tell your mind to take in it and you’ll enjoy it; worked for me at least.
- Lorenzo45 7y ago
  My advice for people like you is to try a super small dose (e.g. 1/8th of a "normal dose"). This will hopefully take the fear away as it will have minimal (if any) noticeable effects and is a baseline to work up from. The people who have bad experiences are the ones that take a large dose the first time they try something.
aidos 7y ago
I've posted about this before but I went to see Robin Carhart-Harris [0] talk about this in London recently. He said that the research was suggesting that the under psychedelics, the brain enters a state where it becomes more malleable and open to reconfiguration (and it actually undergoes a permanent physical change). The same thing happens under extreme trauma. While in this state, the experiences can then almost be structurally hardcoded into the mind. So the chemicals trigger the mechanics, but the experience dictates the lasting effects. [0] https://www.imperial.ac.uk/people/r.carhart-harris https://www.imperial.ac.uk/people/r.carhart-harris
beepboopbeep 7y ago
Super placebo isn't a thing. There is a bounty of research on how psychedelics affect the brain both physiologically and psychologically. They are effectively a suggestive (vs a stimulant or a depressant)
- pmiller2 7y ago
  I think what they might be trying to get at is the concept of an “active placebo.” That is, a treatment that does something, but can’t treat the condition that’s being studied. I disagree that psilocybin is any sort of placebo, but I think this captures the intent of the grandparent comment.
foolfoolz 7y ago
what does “good results” mean? I’ve done many trips on LSD and Psylocybin. A classic line you read about these experiences is they rank up as the most significant events in people’s lives such as the birth of a child. However if you trip 100 times or more, how can all of those times be so incredibly meaningful? They can’t. and they won’t retain their power. and that’s a common feeing of a trip is it feels important and significant and intense in the moment, but a lot of the time you aren’t doing much on a trip. maybe you had a day at the beach. maybe you took it at a music festival. maybe you took it with friends you rarely see. will some of those experiences have more lasting effects than others? yes. will they all feel significant at the time you’re on it? yes. but i don’t agree they don’t count as “good results” if there’s no professional therapy involved. a lot of what you get out of these trips depends on what you put into it. it’s entirely possible to go to a clinical trip and get little out of it. and as many people know you can trip without professional help and see impactful outcomes
- dfraser992 7y ago
  Altered states not does automatically equal altered traits (or however the saying goes)
creed98 7y ago
If depression is how we antifragily cope with our environment then depression is what we will have. Let the mushroom come into our lives like in mario and pursue it when seen. Imagine encountering mushroom on the ground rather than in ads
orasis 7y ago
With the right set and setting you don’t need absolutely need therapy in order to get good results. Writing down some intentions/questions can be enough. Eye shades + music, such as the Johns Hopkins playlist is HIGHLY recommended.
undefined3840 7y ago
Not sure what you mean by “super placebo”? Doesn’t seem right at all. The reason why these drugs are more effective in combination with therapy is because they, speaking from personal experience, “unlock” your mind in a way that can be conducive to objective self-examination.
dblohm7 7y ago
> In other words, you would need to use the drugs in combination with therapy to obtain good results. That's essentially the case with any depression medication.
- x220 7y ago
  No. There are plenty of medications that have measurable effects on average. That doesn't mean it's a one-shot solution for everyone's depression. You need to find the right medication, get therapy, sleep well, and exercise if you have major depressive disorder. But to say that medication has no effect on its own is misleading.
  - dblohm7 7y ago
    > But to say that medication has no effect on its own is misleading. That's not what I was saying.
empath75 7y ago
> In other words, you would need to use the drugs in combination with therapy to obtain good results. I got good results and all I did was listen to music or walk around outside.
sharadov 7y ago
I second this, its a great read by Michael Pollan, he's brilliant. I like his gonzo approach of trying the drugs and reporting on them.
wopila 7y ago
This is a superficial perspective. Indigenous people have been using entheogenic plants for centuries, and understand that these are living entities, spirits here to help humanity - meant to be used in a ceremonial setting, not "drugs" and definitely not "placebo."
ckdarby 7y ago
A very hard book to get through the middle of :(
seppin 7y ago
> I've been reading a book called "How to Change Your Mind It's amazing how the same books get tossed around Silicon Valley, is their a book club i'm not aware of. (just finished the above book, it's heavy on drug history which I dont care about but still well-written)
stjohnswarts 7y ago
Having known several people in the past who used LSD and shrooms, I never noticed anything outstanding about their psychology as attributed by this article or that their mind was any less/more anxious or depressed than say relatively straight edge people like me who've never done any drug other than socially inspired alcohol sessions.
naasking 7y ago
> In other words, you would need to use the drugs in combination with therapy to obtain good results. For optimal results, not good results. The compounds are fairly therapeutic on their own and can and have produced plenty of good results, in the same way that chewing on willow bark still helped with headaches before we concentrated into the convenient form of aspirin.
Florin_Andrei 7y ago
> it seems like these drugs affect the brain in a way that's more akin to a super-placebo When the only thing that's changing is a state of mind, then placebo is actually the real deal.

jrowley 7y ago

I definitely would not consider them to be in the class of drugs as a traditional placebo, in the sense that they drastically alter your sense of consciousness and reality, but you are getting at important component which is that these drugs should be coupled with pre-trip planning therapy and post-trip integration therapy in clinical settings. Great book btw. I highly recommend it anyone who is curious about the subject.

moretai 7y ago
How do you know that the shift in consciousness/reality is not just an illusion?
- brenden2 7y ago
  It is an illusion, but at the same time it's not. It's 100% real to the person perceiving the shift, and in the case of treating mental illness that's all that really counts. It's not so much about how it works or why it works, it's mostly about the result.
- dwaltrip 7y ago
  They have measured very distinct changes in brain functioning.
- wavefunction 7y ago
  It's actually a change in perception and perspective. Since consciousness and reality are subjective results of individual perception and perspective, there is an altering of consciousness and experienced reality. Perception being perceiving and mapping out the external world outside of the individual mind. And perspective then deriving a meaningful relationship between "I" and external Abstract or Concrete Things X.
- empath75 7y ago
  what does that even mean? There is absolutely zero chance that there is a placebo effect in psychedelics. It’s a mind shattering experience. Obviously the hallucinations are illusory but the fact that you are having them is not.
  - semi-extrinsic 7y ago
    To nitpick: it's accurate to say that there is zero chance that the effect of psychedelics is just a placebo effect. This does not mean that there is zero placebo effect involved with taking psychedelics. The latter statement would mean your experience is identical between actively taking a psychedelic and someone slipping some in your drink. I'd say this is unlikely, no? We know for lots of other drugs, both therapeutic and recreational, that there is always a placebo component as well as a "real" one. This is why people do placebo-controlled trials. You take 100 people and give them ibuprofen against joint pain, then you give another 100 people sugar pills against joint pain. Then you record their pain reduction on some scale, and the placebo scores 2 +/- 1 points, and the ibuprofen scores 7 +/- 1 points. So you say ibuprofen has a significantly better effect than placebo, but (probably) 2/7th of the ibuprofen effect is due to placebo.
    - empath75 7y ago
      Yeah, i understand that, but the point of a placebo is that you don't know whether you got the medicine being tested or not. I can assure you that you will be left with zero doubt about whether you received a psychedelic or not, unless it's a very small dose.
      - homonculus1 7y ago
        You're thinking of a blind study, strictly speaking a placebo is simply any pharmaceutically inert substance. You can take a placebo knowingly and in fact knowing that it's not medicine doesn't stop you from getting the benefits of the placebo effect.
- bantheads 7y ago
  How do you know reality is not just an illusion?
stemsux 7y ago
I can't think of many things more likely to induce a horrible trip than some credentialed "therapist" telling me what to do in a "clinal setting".
- realbarack 7y ago
  Consider expanding your definition of what a "therapist" could be and what a "clinical setting" could look like. Michael Pollan's interactions with the therapists (they're called "guides") in "How to Change Your Mind" are not clinical at all in the sense of sterility, beige-walled offices etc.
  - stemsux 7y ago
    So some goofy guy whose parents paid for an online masters degree in trip therapy gets to bill my insurance $200 an hour? Meh, I'll take my chances on the black market.
    - realbarack 7y ago
      Pollan actually does go on the black market (still probably $200/hour though). You can't legally get a psychedelic trip guide in the US right now. The point is that the exact people who are well-known and respected as black-market guides would become therapists in a world where such a profession were legal!
      - jrochkind1 7y ago
        > You can't legally get a psychedelic trip guide in the US right now. Not entirely true, although only a few, there have been and continue to be legal studies involving psilocybin (also MDMA) in addition to the one in the OP. Here is a smoking cessation study in Baltimore, involving a psilocybin psychedelic trip. https://www.quitsmokingbaltimore.org/ https://www.quitsmokingbaltimore.org/ Here's an article about the findings of the 2014 pilot study on the same thing which describes the methodology to some extent. https://hub.jhu.edu/2014/09/11/magic-mushrooms-smoking/ https://hub.jhu.edu/2014/09/11/magic-mushrooms-smoking/
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
lhuser123 7y ago
.
- AnthonBerg 7y ago
  I am fairly sure that rigorous scientific research has shown that this is not the case.
- robotdongs 7y ago
  For LSD and Psilocybin I'm not sure if Toxin is the right word. From my layman understanding, LSD and Psilocybin mimic naturally occurring proteins that bind to certain receptors in your brain triggering release of chemicals like serotonin, dopamine and etc. Your brains natural processes will "clean-up" the LSD and psilocybin just like it would for your body's natural analogs.
- collyw 7y ago
  You have never tried psychedelics have you? They often have the opposite effect of what you have speculated on.
- mytdi 7y ago
  Why did you delete your comment? I really appreciated it and actually bookmarked it specifically. I know it probably wasn't popular among consumers, buy I liked it and agreed with it. I actually have witnessed exactly what you describe in people I know.
  - lhuser123 7y ago
    Thanks. You’re right. It was stupid for me to delete it. I will repost it here with the caveat that I wrote it on impulse. It’s an oversimplification of a really complicated subject. > The way I think of these drugs is just that they flood your brain with toxins. That in itself will make it not work properly. But the scary part is that the more time your brain spend intoxicated the more likely you start loosing or weakening connections. If you weaken connections only for the bad memories, that would be a good thing. But what if you weaken the connections for other important things in your life ? Like self control, moral values, family love, etc.

lm28469 7y ago

> more akin to a super-placebo, rather than being therapeutic on their own. As far as I can tell, from my own experience, lsd kind of make you see your own actions/thoughts as an observer[0], it's a very useful tool if you're into introspection. If you're not used to introspection it can be quite unsettling though. [0] >50ug <400ug, after that you just look a the ceiling and enjoy the lights

senorjazz 7y ago
> >50ug <400ug That is a huge difference. 400ug is a big dose and 50ug barely noticable. Anyone reading this without experience going for 400 is going to get knocked for six
- lm28469 7y ago
  Ah yeah definitely don't go for 400u for your first time. I assume no one would think "that random dude on HN recommended 400ug" and go for it without more research though. 50-150 is more manageable for a beginner.
  - AnthonBerg 7y ago
    The 150 end of the range as a first time can be manageable for some and can be quite intense for others. Some research suggests a “30-40 microgram trip first, then a 60-80 microgram before anything larger, then a 120-140 microgram before anything larger, then either stopping there (this was the dosage that resulted in the highest increase in well-being) or doing a 170-240 microgram trip.” — https://tripsafe.org/how-to-take-lsd/#start-small https://tripsafe.org/how-to-take-lsd/#start-small
    - filleokus 7y ago
      Another issue is the, albeit anecdotal, inaccuracy of LSD concentration in black market products. If you are aiming for a 100 ug dose, and blotters marketed as 100 ug can range from 50-150 ug, its quite hard to do proper dosage. Darknet markets have however probably improved the situation with accountability and reviews from customer.

WhompingWindows 7y ago

Super placebo is a scientifically incorrect description. These drugs suppress activity of the default mode network of the brain, which is a sort of "conductor" of the brain, which chooses which "instruments" to prioritize and how to allocate the train of thought. All of the different parts of your mind are able to sing out more creatively and independently, forging new paths that they are not accustomed to taking -- this is why it's great for mental illnesses like depression, anxiety, alcoholism, smoking -- it allows your mind an incredible flexibility. In my personal experiences with psychedelics, these drugs remove mental heuristics, allowing the mind to think unimpeded by usual thought patterns, simply accepting raw data as it comes in. This was striking in sensory information, if you closed your eyes or just stared at something long enough, you observed incredibly different visual input, geometric patterns, greatly strengthened colors (a strawberry was INCREDIBLY beautiful, I almost felt bad eating such a beautiful entity). There was also an incredible inter-disciplinary thought process, I felt the musical, mathematical, computational, logical, natural, all these parts of my mind mixed together wonderfully. LSD was much longer lasting, around 12 hours, whereas psilocybin was around 6 hours. Psilocybin enhanced my connection with nature, the flying bugs, a handful of berries, and the plants all around me caused an effusion of love and connection. Whereas with LSD, I felt an extremely powerful visual stimulation, the changing fall leaves were extremely vibrant and beautiful, it was akin to 12 hour, mentally-clear cannabis high. I didn't experience any "flashbacks" per se, there was a positive glow in my mood and thoughts for around 5 days, and the day after LSD I still had lingering effects...I also wonder if I will evermore look at the surface of ponds and lakes differently, they have an incredible dynamism and vitality that I appreciated even more on first trip. For anyone considering psychedelics, do it thoughtfully and methodically. Read the book mentioned in the parent, practice meditation, explore your mind, and really ensure your mindset ("set") is positive and open. Further, plan to occupy a peaceful, quiet place, hopefully lacking too many strangers/social interaction ("setting"). If set and setting are good, you're in for a wonderful time.

moretai 7y ago
Is there a way to induce this feeling without the aid of psychedelics or breathwork?

crazygringo 7y ago

Yes they need to be used in conjunction with therapy... but kind of like a surgeon's tools need to be used in conjunction with a surgeon. There's absolutely nothing placebo-like whatsoever about psilocybin, any more than a surgeon's tools are placebos. It's an extremely powerful tool that can be applied in a therapeutic context.

inspector-g 7y ago
All treatment modalities have a placebo effect. Including surgery. See: decades of modern research on sham surgeries.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- neonate 7y ago
  True of course, but having a placebo effect is not the same as being a placebo. Non-placebos have other effects too.
  - strbean 7y ago
    The term "super-placebo" is silly in the first place. Any effective treatment is a "super-placebo" - it works better than placebo.

2OEH8eoCRo0 7y ago

Haven't read it but Michael Pollan is a good egg.

throwaway1126 7y ago

I won't pretend to understand the neuroscience, but consider: Today's antidepressants work by affecting your serotonin. Another serotonin-affecting drug comes along, and it's assumed to be "placebo"? Personally I tried it. A very low dose completely wipes out any depression or negative thought for weeks at a time. Way better than zoloft.

newnewpdro 7y ago
Agreed. I'm surprised by the focus on large psychedelic trip doses and placebos in this thread. It's basically two opposing extremes. I too have observed incredible effects of taking small below-threshold doses of psilocybin, with absolutely no negative effect whatsoever. It's tempting to incorporate half a stem into my regular morning routine like a vitamin.

sharkweek 7y ago

Another vote for this book - I deal with OCD, and thus my brain is always thrusting all sorts of wild and crazy fears through my consciousness. I'm not sure I have the stomach to try a psychedelic to try and treat it, as I've seen some success with exposure therapy, but the curiosity is there. I also had some pretty bad experiences with marijuana when I was younger (college), that have kind of scarred my ability to relax before taking any drugs. There's a part in the book where it was either him on one of his experimental trips or maybe it was someone he interviewed, but while tripping, they were faced with some terribly scary images. The person tripping said to their therapist guide that they were scared of whatever they were seeing and wanted to run away. The therapist suggested instead that they turn around and face head on whatever it was that they were seeing that scared them. Stare at it, observe it, take it in. After they did so, the thing they thought they were so afraid of ended up not being so bad, and they sort of peacefully coexisted with it for a bit longer in the trip until the thing went away. This is how I try and frame the scary things that run through my brain, it's normal to be afraid of bad thoughts, but also learning how to peacefully coexist with them is pretty healthy.

ata_aman 7y ago
I honestly thought I wrote this as I was reading. I’ve had the exact same bad experiences, essentially everytime I tried it. First time being the one that started it all where I accidentally ate two full brownies. That scarred me. Second time I almost lost all motor skills for a few minutes. The last time it happened I decided to change the experience when I felt it start. This time, instead of fighting it, I just let go and basically tricked myself into enjoying it and boy was it great. I know the feeling of a bad experience, but tell your mind to take in it and you’ll enjoy it; worked for me at least.
Lorenzo45 7y ago
My advice for people like you is to try a super small dose (e.g. 1/8th of a "normal dose"). This will hopefully take the fear away as it will have minimal (if any) noticeable effects and is a baseline to work up from. The people who have bad experiences are the ones that take a large dose the first time they try something.

aidos 7y ago

I've posted about this before but I went to see Robin Carhart-Harris [0] talk about this in London recently. He said that the research was suggesting that the under psychedelics, the brain enters a state where it becomes more malleable and open to reconfiguration (and it actually undergoes a permanent physical change). The same thing happens under extreme trauma. While in this state, the experiences can then almost be structurally hardcoded into the mind. So the chemicals trigger the mechanics, but the experience dictates the lasting effects. [0] https://www.imperial.ac.uk/people/r.carhart-harris https://www.imperial.ac.uk/people/r.carhart-harris

beepboopbeep 7y ago

Super placebo isn't a thing. There is a bounty of research on how psychedelics affect the brain both physiologically and psychologically. They are effectively a suggestive (vs a stimulant or a depressant)

pmiller2 7y ago
I think what they might be trying to get at is the concept of an “active placebo.” That is, a treatment that does something, but can’t treat the condition that’s being studied. I disagree that psilocybin is any sort of placebo, but I think this captures the intent of the grandparent comment.

foolfoolz 7y ago

what does “good results” mean? I’ve done many trips on LSD and Psylocybin. A classic line you read about these experiences is they rank up as the most significant events in people’s lives such as the birth of a child. However if you trip 100 times or more, how can all of those times be so incredibly meaningful? They can’t. and they won’t retain their power. and that’s a common feeing of a trip is it feels important and significant and intense in the moment, but a lot of the time you aren’t doing much on a trip. maybe you had a day at the beach. maybe you took it at a music festival. maybe you took it with friends you rarely see. will some of those experiences have more lasting effects than others? yes. will they all feel significant at the time you’re on it? yes. but i don’t agree they don’t count as “good results” if there’s no professional therapy involved. a lot of what you get out of these trips depends on what you put into it. it’s entirely possible to go to a clinical trip and get little out of it. and as many people know you can trip without professional help and see impactful outcomes

dfraser992 7y ago
Altered states not does automatically equal altered traits (or however the saying goes)

creed98 7y ago

If depression is how we antifragily cope with our environment then depression is what we will have. Let the mushroom come into our lives like in mario and pursue it when seen. Imagine encountering mushroom on the ground rather than in ads

orasis 7y ago

With the right set and setting you don’t need absolutely need therapy in order to get good results. Writing down some intentions/questions can be enough. Eye shades + music, such as the Johns Hopkins playlist is HIGHLY recommended.

undefined3840 7y ago

Not sure what you mean by “super placebo”? Doesn’t seem right at all. The reason why these drugs are more effective in combination with therapy is because they, speaking from personal experience, “unlock” your mind in a way that can be conducive to objective self-examination.

dblohm7 7y ago

> In other words, you would need to use the drugs in combination with therapy to obtain good results. That's essentially the case with any depression medication.

x220 7y ago
No. There are plenty of medications that have measurable effects on average. That doesn't mean it's a one-shot solution for everyone's depression. You need to find the right medication, get therapy, sleep well, and exercise if you have major depressive disorder. But to say that medication has no effect on its own is misleading.
- dblohm7 7y ago
  > But to say that medication has no effect on its own is misleading. That's not what I was saying.

empath75 7y ago

> In other words, you would need to use the drugs in combination with therapy to obtain good results. I got good results and all I did was listen to music or walk around outside.

sharadov 7y ago

I second this, its a great read by Michael Pollan, he's brilliant. I like his gonzo approach of trying the drugs and reporting on them.

wopila 7y ago

This is a superficial perspective. Indigenous people have been using entheogenic plants for centuries, and understand that these are living entities, spirits here to help humanity - meant to be used in a ceremonial setting, not "drugs" and definitely not "placebo."

ckdarby 7y ago

A very hard book to get through the middle of :(

seppin 7y ago

> I've been reading a book called "How to Change Your Mind It's amazing how the same books get tossed around Silicon Valley, is their a book club i'm not aware of. (just finished the above book, it's heavy on drug history which I dont care about but still well-written)

stjohnswarts 7y ago

Having known several people in the past who used LSD and shrooms, I never noticed anything outstanding about their psychology as attributed by this article or that their mind was any less/more anxious or depressed than say relatively straight edge people like me who've never done any drug other than socially inspired alcohol sessions.

naasking 7y ago

> In other words, you would need to use the drugs in combination with therapy to obtain good results. For optimal results, not good results. The compounds are fairly therapeutic on their own and can and have produced plenty of good results, in the same way that chewing on willow bark still helped with headaches before we concentrated into the convenient form of aspirin.

Florin_Andrei 7y ago

> it seems like these drugs affect the brain in a way that's more akin to a super-placebo When the only thing that's changing is a state of mind, then placebo is actually the real deal.