4 ms·

>the idea that US positioning against China is aimed at genuinely improving human rights and not just using them as rhetorical cover. You must be saying this i

>the idea that US positioning against China is aimed at genuinely improving human rights and not just using them as rhetorical cover. You must be saying this in jest, or you have been brainwashed. Without even touching on the interment camps, which are definitely worse than the US prison system; here is demonstrable evidence that the US cares more about global human rights than the Chinese.[1] [1]https://www.hrw.org/report/2011/11/04/youll-be-fired-if-you-refuse/labor-abuses-zambias-chinese-state-owned-copper-mines https://www.hrw.org/report/2011/11/04/youll-be-fired-if-you-...

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
The United States invaded Iraq and killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis on a thin pretext. It toppled the government of Libya, leading to years of turmoil and the return of literal slavery. It supported Sunni extremists in Syria that helped tear that country apart. It ran a global kidnapping and torture operation for years. It conducts drone assassinations around the world. When I hear Americans talking about the US standing for human rights around the world, I wonder where they've been living these past few decades.
- rayiner 7y ago
  The intervention in Libya was due to a security council resolution proposed by the UK and France. It was run as a joint NATO effort.
  - jsjohnst 7y ago
    > It was run as a joint NATO effort. All that says is that other “democratic” “human rights advocating” countries are also to blame.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
    I'm not saying that France out the UK have clean hands either, but there was critical US involvement. NATO went far beyond the UN mandate to protect civilians, however, becoming the de facto rebel air force. NATO tried several times to assassinate Gaddafi, killing his family members instead. For example, one airstrike in Tripoli killed a son and three grandchildren of his.[1] Of course, they did eventually bomb his caravan, leaving him to be brutally murdered on the side of the road. None of this was authorized by the UN. Western special forces were also not authorized to operate in Libya, but they did anyways. Anyways, years after this wonderful exercise in protecting civilians, the country is still in a state of civil war, torn between different warlords. People forget that as bad as Gaddafi was, Libya used to have the highest living standard in Africa. Now, it's a nightmare. 1. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-libya/libyas-gaddafi-survives-air-strikes-son-killed-idUSTRE7270JP20110430 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-libya/libyas-gaddafi-surv...
- riversflow 7y ago
  Look, I'm didn't say that the US is a beacon of morality, what I'm saying is that China is significantly less moral than the US, and I gave a direct apples to apples example. Pointing out that the US participated in the Iraq war is not really on topic at all, because the US is the sole flag-bearer of free trade on the high seas in our global economic system--no one else has the navy to do it and nobody else has to maintain that machine. The US hasn't kidnapped and tortured any consulate employees recently, which China just did. https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/11/21/uk-govt-summons-china-ambassador-torture-former-consulate-staffer/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/11/21/uk-govt-summons-china-...
  - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
    Saying the US "participated in the Iraq war" is putting it rather euphemistically. The US government lied and engineered the Iraq War, which was an illegal war of aggression. It led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. ISIS probably would never have come into existence without the Iraq war. > The US hasn't kidnapped and tortured any consulate employees recently, which China just did. Perhaps not (though it does have a recent history of kidnapping and torturing people on a global scale), but the US is busy blasting away pine nut farmers in Afghanistan.[1] 1. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-attack-drones/u-s-drone-strike-kills-30-pine-nut-farm-workers-in-afghanistan-idUSKBN1W40NW https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-attack-drones...
billfruit 7y ago
How many people get killed at the hands of the police in encounters in the US, versus the same in China. My guess is that at least on a per capita basis, the figure would be more in the US. Also I do not subscribe to the view that Democracy is somehow morally superior to other forms of government. Anyone who has read Plutarch, can understand that figures like Pericles can manipulate the minds of the masses and rule as an authoritarian under the guise of being a democrat. The same playbook is being used for thousands of years with the same effect. See Erdogan in Turkey, I don't see him ever outsted from power democratically, aleast not in a long time. Same reason products with the better advertisment sells better than the better product.
pjc50 7y ago
That link doesn't actually mention the US at all? It points to a single example involving Zambia and China, which is definitely bad. There are an awfully long list of those around the world. That's what I mean - if you go looking for incidents where the Chinese are involved and build up a prosecution argument against them, that's a very different approach to trying to systematically and without favour deal with all human rights abuses of all scale by all parties. Which is a huge job.
- riversflow 7y ago
  I'm saying that China consistently does a worse job of handling human rights than the United States. The post WWII global economic order has been mostly on the US; recently China has started to push out into Africa, plundering their fishing stocks and practicing neo-colonialism. I'm looking for places where China is pushing into an existing economic order and noticing how humans rights standards generally go backwards.
  - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
    > recently China has started to push out into Africa, plundering their fishing stocks and practicing neo-colonialism Do you have any idea about the history of the United States in Africa? The overthrow and murder of the first elected President of the Democratic Republic of the Congo and the installation of an American-friendly dictator. Support for the coup that overthrew the first elected President of Ghana and replaced him with a military government. Opposition to Angolan independence from the Portuguese empire. Support for the Apartheid regime in South Africa. And you're comparing this to what? Chinese companies overfishing in African coastal waters? You're really lacking a sense of perspective here.

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago

The United States invaded Iraq and killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis on a thin pretext. It toppled the government of Libya, leading to years of turmoil and the return of literal slavery. It supported Sunni extremists in Syria that helped tear that country apart. It ran a global kidnapping and torture operation for years. It conducts drone assassinations around the world. When I hear Americans talking about the US standing for human rights around the world, I wonder where they've been living these past few decades.

rayiner 7y ago
The intervention in Libya was due to a security council resolution proposed by the UK and France. It was run as a joint NATO effort.
- jsjohnst 7y ago
  > It was run as a joint NATO effort. All that says is that other “democratic” “human rights advocating” countries are also to blame.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
  I'm not saying that France out the UK have clean hands either, but there was critical US involvement. NATO went far beyond the UN mandate to protect civilians, however, becoming the de facto rebel air force. NATO tried several times to assassinate Gaddafi, killing his family members instead. For example, one airstrike in Tripoli killed a son and three grandchildren of his.[1] Of course, they did eventually bomb his caravan, leaving him to be brutally murdered on the side of the road. None of this was authorized by the UN. Western special forces were also not authorized to operate in Libya, but they did anyways. Anyways, years after this wonderful exercise in protecting civilians, the country is still in a state of civil war, torn between different warlords. People forget that as bad as Gaddafi was, Libya used to have the highest living standard in Africa. Now, it's a nightmare. 1. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-libya/libyas-gaddafi-survives-air-strikes-son-killed-idUSTRE7270JP20110430 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-libya/libyas-gaddafi-surv...
riversflow 7y ago
Look, I'm didn't say that the US is a beacon of morality, what I'm saying is that China is significantly less moral than the US, and I gave a direct apples to apples example. Pointing out that the US participated in the Iraq war is not really on topic at all, because the US is the sole flag-bearer of free trade on the high seas in our global economic system--no one else has the navy to do it and nobody else has to maintain that machine. The US hasn't kidnapped and tortured any consulate employees recently, which China just did. https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/11/21/uk-govt-summons-china-ambassador-torture-former-consulate-staffer/ https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/11/21/uk-govt-summons-china-...
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
  Saying the US "participated in the Iraq war" is putting it rather euphemistically. The US government lied and engineered the Iraq War, which was an illegal war of aggression. It led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. ISIS probably would never have come into existence without the Iraq war. > The US hasn't kidnapped and tortured any consulate employees recently, which China just did. Perhaps not (though it does have a recent history of kidnapping and torturing people on a global scale), but the US is busy blasting away pine nut farmers in Afghanistan.[1] 1. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-attack-drones/u-s-drone-strike-kills-30-pine-nut-farm-workers-in-afghanistan-idUSKBN1W40NW https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-attack-drones...

billfruit 7y ago

How many people get killed at the hands of the police in encounters in the US, versus the same in China. My guess is that at least on a per capita basis, the figure would be more in the US. Also I do not subscribe to the view that Democracy is somehow morally superior to other forms of government. Anyone who has read Plutarch, can understand that figures like Pericles can manipulate the minds of the masses and rule as an authoritarian under the guise of being a democrat. The same playbook is being used for thousands of years with the same effect. See Erdogan in Turkey, I don't see him ever outsted from power democratically, aleast not in a long time. Same reason products with the better advertisment sells better than the better product.

pjc50 7y ago

That link doesn't actually mention the US at all? It points to a single example involving Zambia and China, which is definitely bad. There are an awfully long list of those around the world. That's what I mean - if you go looking for incidents where the Chinese are involved and build up a prosecution argument against them, that's a very different approach to trying to systematically and without favour deal with all human rights abuses of all scale by all parties. Which is a huge job.

riversflow 7y ago
I'm saying that China consistently does a worse job of handling human rights than the United States. The post WWII global economic order has been mostly on the US; recently China has started to push out into Africa, plundering their fishing stocks and practicing neo-colonialism. I'm looking for places where China is pushing into an existing economic order and noticing how humans rights standards generally go backwards.
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
  > recently China has started to push out into Africa, plundering their fishing stocks and practicing neo-colonialism Do you have any idea about the history of the United States in Africa? The overthrow and murder of the first elected President of the Democratic Republic of the Congo and the installation of an American-friendly dictator. Support for the coup that overthrew the first elected President of Ghana and replaced him with a military government. Opposition to Angolan independence from the Portuguese empire. Support for the Apartheid regime in South Africa. And you're comparing this to what? Chinese companies overfishing in African coastal waters? You're really lacking a sense of perspective here.